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Marine Ornamental Fish & Invertebrate Breeders • View topic - Breeding Log - Pajama Cardinal

Breeding Log - Pajama Cardinal

Breeding Log - Pajama Cardinal

Postby William » Tue Apr 08, 2008 6:48 pm

On 3/11, I acquired 2 large(~3") Pajama Cardinals. They were an impulse buy, they were trade ins and I could the price was too good to pass up.

I put them in a 20H by themselves. From here on I am going to call the slightly larger fish PJ1 and the smaller of the two, PJ2.

They definitely did not like each other. After two nights of beatings, PJ2 had tattered fins, and a large red fleshy wound on it's jaw.

___________________________________________________________

So assuming that I had gotten unlucky and had two fish of the same sex, on 3/13, I added 3 more large (again ~3") Cardinals to the tank.

I'm going to call these fish PJ3, PJ4, and PJ5. Again going from largest to smallest, though in reality, all of these fish are about the same size. Though PJ2 and PJ5 are clearly a bit smaller than the others and PJ2. So in order of size (largest first) it goes like this. PJ3, PJ1, PJ4, PJ2, PJ5.


Interestingly, PJ1 continued to spend most of time harassing PJ2. And when PJ1.
gets tired of chasing PJ2, PJ3 takes over the job of harassing PJ2.

PJ5 is also the target of aggression from PJ1 and PJ3, though to a much lesser extent than PJ2.

PJ4, seems to be neutral. Nobody harasses him, and he does not harass anybody.

PJ1, PJ3, and PJ4 got along fairly well, they occasionally will make faces at each other (Pushing their chin down to make their face look taller, very much like dottybacks do when they are mad) but physical contact was very rare.

_______________________________________________________

On 4/5, the aggression toward PJ2 finally pushed him over the deep end. It is now missing half of it's lower jaw.

I removed PJ2 to a tank by himself. I'm doubtful that it will survive. It still eats, though with much less gusto than before. And even if it does survive, it is still worthless from a breeding perspective, as it could never compete for food with only half of a mouth.


____________________________________________________

After removing PJ2, the dynamics changed.

Now, PJ3 does most of the chasing. And he is chasing of PJ5.

PJ1 also joins in on chasing PJ5 as well, but it is no longer the most aggressive fish.

And then PJ4 who was more or less left alone before, is now getting beat up by both PJ1 and PJ3. But the attacks on PJ4 are very different from the attacks to PJ5 PJ2. When they attack PJ4 they are very quick strikes at his side or tail. While aggression toward color=green]PJ5[/color] and PJ2 are much slower targeted at it's belly.

_____________________________________

All of this has left me a bit undecided how to proceed.

I suspect that PJ1 , PJ5, and PJ5 are one sex, and PJ2 and PJ5 are the other.

So right now I am at a 3:1 sex ratio, which is probably not ideal.

I am tempted to pick up a few more and hope to even out the ratio. But I am also concerned about overcrowding as this is only a 20 gallon aquarium.
Last edited by William on Fri Nov 21, 2008 7:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby ozadars » Sat Apr 19, 2008 7:43 pm

I dont think that pajama cardinals are peaceful grouping fish. I kept two before in a nano tank and as they grow bigger, the bigger one started to chase the smaller one more.
I think they need to be kept as pairs but even in small tanks the pairs might fight too. They need some place for each individual.
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Postby William » Sat Apr 19, 2008 9:22 pm

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Pajama Cardinal Social Dynamics

Postby charlie » Wed Aug 06, 2008 7:28 pm

Hello,
I have a kaudernii in a tank with 500G, very shalow and wide.
He is about 5cm long. A while ago i introduced another pair slightly shorter. they were not the center of my attention at thet time because i have 4 pairs of clowns also in that tank, three of them spawning, so i only noticed well when one of them commited suicide.
The remaining pair tolerate each other and started to spend more time together.

The maiting ritual consist in staying together side by side with the mail going up and down the female. i presume thats when he fertilizes and grab the clutch.

That time the male only carried the eggs for 8 days and start to eat there.


20 days later he was "pregnant" again, and by day 20 i placed a floatting aquarium there with 2 airstones and 2 balls of plastic floss.

I grabbed him with a net and even before i've placed him in the floatting aquarium he released 45 free swimming little fish, most of them still with big reserves resting in the bottom of the tank.

I am now at day 10 with only one lost at day 1.


Try to had some pictures soon.
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Postby danch » Thu Oct 09, 2008 10:48 pm

roti-whatnow?
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Postby Zaita » Sun Oct 12, 2008 2:39 pm

An experienced friend hobbyist has about 10-12 PJ's in his 200g tank. He has had them for a few years with no aggression problems. They will quite happily shoal together giving a tank of adequate size.
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Postby William » Tue Nov 04, 2008 11:03 pm

Last edited by William on Wed Nov 05, 2008 12:05 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby driftin » Tue Nov 04, 2008 11:29 pm

-Jim
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Postby William » Fri Nov 21, 2008 7:21 pm

The eggs I reported seeing just before lights out in the last post were gone the following morning. I was very confident that I saw eggs, but I started to wonder if they were cardinal fish eggs. They could have been dottyback eggs that the cardinal stole and ate. (though as far as I know the dottybacks in their tank have never spawned so either way it is exciting and good news.)

After that both fish seemed to have an increased appetite. And they both started to put on a lot of weight. After a while both looked very bloated even in the morning before their first feeding. The female was more bloated though. And even more interestingly I started observing courtship. Normally the female harasses the male and chases him away. They normally hang out on opposite ends of the tank. But they started hanging out together a lot, and the male showed interest in the female. Bumping against her belly. Several times I ran to get the camera hoping to catch the actual spawning event of film.

I did not catch the actual event, but on Wednesday (11/19) Morning I noticed the male was holding eggs. Last time his mouth looked normal and he was struggling to keep them in his mouth - they keep drooling out. This time he has learned a new trick – he has made his mouth huge and has no difficulties holding all the eggs – even with part of his jaw missing.

It is now 3 days later and he is still holding the eggs. :) Looks like this time he might hold them full term. YEA…. :D

Male - Holding Eggs
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Female
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Postby William » Tue Nov 25, 2008 10:05 pm

Well tonight would be the 7th night since the eggs were layed. Witt's book says hatching should occur on the 7th or 8th night, so I transferred the male to the hatching tank just before the lights went off.

I need to come up with a better strategy to for catching the male. In his attempt to avoid capture he lost some of the eggs. And then once placed in the hatching tank, he immediately spit the whole ball. So I returned the male back to the broodstock tank (I was worried he would eat them now that he spit them).

Since I am expecting them to hatch tonight, I am not employing any sort of artificial incubation. I just left the egg-ball setting on the bottom of the hatching tank.

I suppose one positive thing to come out of him spitting the eggs was that I got a chance to photograph the egg ball.

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Postby William » Wed Nov 26, 2008 9:02 am

The eggs did not hatch last night. And I suspect they are dead. :cry:

I will have to come up with a better way to catch the male that does not cause him to spit the eggs.
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Postby driftin » Wed Nov 26, 2008 1:52 pm

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Postby William » Mon Dec 01, 2008 8:38 am

The male is holding eggs again this morning.
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Postby William » Sat Dec 06, 2008 9:59 pm

Well, tonight was the 7th night so I chased down the male. Again he spit the eggs before I caught him. Hopefully this time they will hatch.
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Postby danch » Sun Dec 07, 2008 12:05 am

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Postby William » Sun Dec 07, 2008 12:43 am

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Postby William » Mon Dec 08, 2008 10:00 am

Well this batch has still not hatched yet. Now at 36 hours post stripping, they do not look nearly as rotten as the first batch did after 12 hours, but still I think they are now dead.

I see 2 potential problems.

1. Hatching conditions are not permitting them to free themselves from the egg ball.
2. I am just pulling the eggs too soon. I know that my post-striping care is insufficient for long term incubation. Assuming I never figure out how to move the male while he is carrying, I want to pull the eggs just moments before they would hatch and therefore not need a complicated incubator. If I am pulling the eggs a day to early, of course they would not hatch that night, and then they die over the next 24 hours do to inadequate incubation.

For now I am going to assume the problem is #2 (because that one is easier to fix), and next time I will wait another day before chasing down the male. If they hatch on night 7 when still in the males care, I will know that the problem is the hatching conditions and I will get to work on some kind of egg tumbler.
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Postby William » Mon Dec 15, 2008 1:55 pm

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Postby suphew » Fri Dec 19, 2008 4:19 pm

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Re: Breeding Log - Pajama Cardinal

Postby William » Tue Jun 30, 2009 12:05 am

Well, a lot has happened since I the last update.

- The spawning pair died. When a mystery disease that seemed to only effect fish that were spawning killed all of my spawning pairs.
- I added 4 new PJ's to the remaining 2.
- This group behaves completely differently than the last group. They all get along just fine. No aggression what-so-ever. So I left all 6 together in the same 20G tank.
- I am not sure which one(s) are females, but I am back in business. A few weeks ago the smaller of the two from the original group was holding eggs.
- I was unable to harvest the first batch because I was out of town when it hatched.
- Tonight the second spawn hatched: I let my rotifers die out when I lost my last spawing pair a few months ago. So this batch has no chance of survival, but can still be good practice. (Hey John, do you have an rotifers to spare )

So, for this batch I built a hatching cone. I shaped some ~1mm mesh into a cone and placed it over an air stone. In stark contrast to the last pair. I had the hardest time getting the Male to give up the eggs. Eventually I was able to coax him into spitting half of the ball, which I placed in the cone mesh. After another 10 minutes of harassing the male, I gave up on getting the other half, and returned him to the broodstock tank.

Almost instantly after placing the eggball in the cone I noticed larvae swimming about the tub.

I took a small sample of the eggball and placed in on a piece of tile with a few drops of water for observation. Almost immediately the sample started hatching.

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Re:

Postby Degec » Wed Jul 29, 2009 2:07 am

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Re: Breeding Log - Pajama Cardinal

Postby William » Tue Aug 11, 2009 12:56 am

Tonight I pulled the male and moved it to the larvae tank. In the process he spit out a handful(7-10) of eggs which I collected to photograph. The eggs I collected immediately started hatching. I'll post an update about what happened to the rest of the eggs in the morning.....

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Re: Breeding Log - Pajama Cardinal

Postby lance » Tue Aug 11, 2009 1:20 am

congrat's on the babies good luck raising them

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Re: Breeding Log - Pajama Cardinal

Postby William » Tue Aug 11, 2009 8:38 am

This morning the male was no longer chewing on the egg mass so I returned him to the broodstock tank. Lots of dead larvae on the bottom of the tank, but there were a few survivors.

I siphoned out most of the dead larvae and un-hatched eggs. Then I added Iso and Rotifers. Wish me luck.....

Ohh, and I forgot to mention. The eggs hatched on the 7th night - I noticed the male carrying eggs on Tuesday morning, and they hatched on next Monday Night.
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Re: Breeding Log - Pajama Cardinal

Postby William » Tue Aug 11, 2009 8:58 pm

So, 18 hours in and there has been significant changes in the gut region.


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