Mandarin rescue: Need help!

[fishmom]

I have been a lurker learning about potentially being a Scooter grandma at some point in the future. Alas, something happened today that has me actually posting...

While in a LFS I saw 2 very sad looking mandarins. They appear pretty young, barey 2 inches long. They were being sold for $12.99 for the pair, so I figured I could at least try to bring them along.

I put them in my 10g pod prop tank, which is empty except for 1 small blue hermit and 1 small nassarius snail. It has about 5 pounds of live rock and oodles of pods - amphi- and copa-, happily reproducing with no predators. I UNDERSTAND this tank is too small for them, however, with pods visible a mile away on just about every available surface, I figured it was OK for the short term - we have a 110g in progress

When I initially got my scooters, they hit the tank looking for food. The 2 mandarins, however, simply swam to the bottom and sat there.

Question 1: Do mandarins have the same constant search behavior as scooters?

When the mandarins didn't show the same behavior as the scooters, I offered target fed Prawn eggs, enriched brine and chopped mysis soaked in garlic and zoecon. I got no response out of either fish.

One of my scooters was also wild caught and I taught him to eat prepared foods by drop by drop target feeding in front of him. It took him all of about 1/2 a minute to catch on, and now he does his mating dance whenever he sees me approach with a jar. (I am so honored to be considered 'hot' by a boy scooter )

Question 2: If it is not already too late for the mandarins, shouldn't they have been as ready as the scooter to 'hunt' the new food?

I already know that there is a very good chance that I bought 'dead fish', but at the very least I could offer them a proper burial with love in the 'family plot'.

Question 3: Can we assume after 2 days of no observed eating that the 2 little mandarins are already too far gone and I should just let them go in peace, or does someone have a trick for feeding them that may give them a fighting chance. I will do anything to make them a success story.

Any input would be more than a little greatly appreciated.

[mpedersen]

I have been a lurker learning about potentially being a Scooter grandma at some point in the future. Alas, something happened today that has me actually posting...

Welcome officially to MOFIB Fishmom!

While in a LFS I saw 2 very sad looking mandarins. They appear pretty young, barey 2 inches long. They were being sold for $12.99 for the pair, so I figured I could at least try to bring them along.

$6.50 each for Mandarins? I want to point out one other thing - "Very Sad". The thing with Mandarins, if you start out with "Very Sad" looking fish, the odds are largely against you being successful. I can't fault you for trying though, as odds are these "very sad" mandarins would have ended up "very dead" if left at the shop (assuming that based on the current quality of the fish, and the PRICE that was attached to them).

I put them in my 10g pod prop tank, which is empty except for 1 small blue hermit and 1 small nassarius snail. It has about 5 pounds of live rock and oodles of pods - amphi- and copa-, happily reproducing with no predators. I UNDERSTAND this tank is too small for them, however, with pods visible a mile away on just about every available surface, I figured it was OK for the short term - we have a 110g in progress

I speak from personal experience, and many here have since replicated what I've done. A 10 gallon is possibly NOT too small for a pair of mandarins. It IS too small only from the standpoint of relying on the tank to be the food provider.

When I initially got my scooters, they hit the tank looking for food. The 2 mandarins, however, simply swam to the bottom and sat there.

Question 1: Do mandarins have the same constant search behavior as scooters?

Yes. This is where I'll refer you back to the "very sad" quote earlier. A mandarin that is no longer inquisitive is in very bad shape.

When the mandarins didn't show the same behavior as the scooters, I offered target fed Prawn eggs, enriched brine and chopped mysis soaked in garlic and zoecon. I got no response out of either fish.

This is not surprising.

One of my scooters was also wild caught

Unless there's someone we don't know about who's actively breeding ad producing this species, all of your scooters are wild caught. As far as we know no one's bothered to rear this particular dragonette species.

and I taught him to eat prepared foods by drop by drop target feeding in front of him. It took him all of about 1/2 a minute to catch on, and now he does his mating dance whenever he sees me approach with a jar. (I am so honored to be considered 'hot' by a boy scooter )

Scooters are all too willing to take prepared foods. That simply a fundamental difference between the Scooters (S. ocellatus and S. stellatus) vs. the 'Mandarins' (S. picturatus and S. splendidus).

Question 2: If it is not already too late for the mandarins, shouldn't they have been as ready as the scooter to 'hunt' the new food?

No. Even newly imported WC mandarins are reluctant to go after dead / frozen / prepared foods.

Question 3: Can we assume after 2 days of no observed eating that the 2 little mandarins are already too far gone and I should just let them go in peace, or does someone have a trick for feeding them that may give them a fighting chance. I will do anything to make them a success story.

Enriched LIVE ADULT brine shrimp, and put each fish in it's own breeder net. There's a lot more about this running around the dragonette forum, but here's the short answer. Isolation is great. Confining the fish into an even smaller space virtually ensures constant contact with potential food...so in other words, you won't have to offer as much adult brine shrimp. It will also make it easier to monitor feeding, as well as being able to change out old brine shrimp for newly enriched brine shrimp. Once (if) they take the live adult brine shrimp actively, start offering the high quality frozen brine shrimp (i.e. spirulina and HUFA enriched for example). Once they take frozen brine with GUSTO, stop offering the live adult brine. From there, frozen mysis like Hikari (and later in life, PE)...

I don't give your particular pair very much hope, but going with live adult brine shrimp is going to be your best bet (it has worked for me just about every time).

[fishmom]

$6.50 each for Mandarins? I want to point out one other thing - "Very Sad". The thing with Mandarins, if you start out with "Very Sad" looking fish, the odds are largely against you being successful. I can't fault you for trying though, as odds are these "very sad" mandarins would have ended up "very dead" if left at the shop (assuming that based on the current quality of the fish, and the PRICE that was attached to them).

it was a 'big box' store. they see $$ not quality, but sometimes they have great prices on hardgoods and food. they are officially sworn off despite prices in the future. as i said in my original post, at the very least they can be buried in the family critter plot rather than thrown in the garbage. hopefully that gets me notch in to fish heaven.

I speak from personal experience, and many here have since replicated what I've done. A 10 gallon is possibly NOT too small for a pair of mandarins. It IS too small only from the standpoint of relying on the tank to be the food provider.

the oodles of pods made it a possible emergency ward for the mandarins. the bummer is, live or die, i have to dump all pods that are left because i don't dare transfer to my scooters!

Yes. This is where I'll refer you back to the "very sad" quote earlier. A mandarin that is no longer inquisitive is in very bad shape.

kind of figured, but i hadn't earned the right to work with mandarins yet. i figured a few years with the scooters and then i could graduate. i haven't actually seen a 'healthy' mandarin before to compare behaviors.

hooked up the brine hatcher/auto feeder in the tank just in case... as long as the mandarins are alive, i can still hope.

Unless there's someone we don't know about who's actively breeding ad producing this species, all of your scooters are wild caught. As far as we know no one's bothered to rear this particular dragonette species.

actually he is a local guy. my sigmond was being traded at the lfs the same day i picked him up. (he was my first.) the guy said he gets one or 2 per batch actually hatching, and from them he is lucky to get 1 to make it to 1 inch. 4 breeding pairs tanked separate. in 2 years he has sucessfully raised 9 captivebred babies. so, not a commercial breeder, but a guy who got lucky and trades to the lfs's for credit. personally, i would be very happy with 1 grandscooter

Enriched LIVE ADULT brine shrimp, and put each fish in it's own breeder net. There's a lot more about this running around the dragonette forum, but here's the short answer. Isolation is great. Confining the fish into an even smaller space virtually ensures constant contact with potential food...so in other words, you won't have to offer as much adult brine shrimp. It will also make it easier to monitor feeding, as well as being able to change out old brine shrimp for newly enriched brine shrimp. Once (if) they take the live adult brine shrimp actively, start offering the high quality frozen brine shrimp (i.e. spirulina and HUFA enriched for example). Once they take frozen brine with GUSTO, stop offering the live adult brine. From there, frozen mysis like Hikari (and later in life, PE)...

I don't give your particular pair very much hope, but going with live adult brine shrimp is going to be your best bet (it has worked for me just about every time).

I'm on it! how long does it take a brine to reach adult? i have only ever kept mine 3 days. Have the breeder nets in my possession and am good to go. But alas, i started the eggs in the auto feeder as well as a second batch in a separate hatcher tonite. hopefully the little patients will make it long enough for the brine to grow.

Also, I have zoecon which i know is one component of enriching brine, what else do you recommend?

Thank you so much for your help.

[mpedersen]

Unless there's someone we don't know about who's actively breeding ad producing this species, all of your scooters are wild caught. As far as we know no one's bothered to rear this particular dragonette species.

actually he is a local guy. my sigmond was being traded at the lfs the same day i picked him up. (he was my first.) the guy said he gets one or 2 per batch actually hatching, and from them he is lucky to get 1 to make it to 1 inch. 4 breeding pairs tanked separate. in 2 years he has sucessfully raised 9 captivebred babies. so, not a commercial breeder, but a guy who got lucky and trades to the lfs's for credit.

Then he's beat me to it!!! Please invite him to join up and tell us about his experiences. He might very well be the first for sure then. At least he could claim "Bragging rights", if not much in the way of financial compensation!

I'm on it! how long does it take a brine to reach adult?

A couple weeks. More likely you'll buy them from a local shop (start calling around, Live Adult Brine is a pretty standard live feed to offer). Feed them a phytoplankton product to keep them alive, enrich with something like Super Selcon (I have not used Zoecon, so I can't recommend it up or down)

You should certainly continue to TRY offering frozen foods, i.e. try frozen adult brine. You *may* get lucky. The thing is, again, isolation, and constant contact. If the food is virtually in your lap all the time, you might be me apt to consider it (thus the breeder net vs. just leaving it in the tank). If it's not eaten a few hours, replace with some more that's fresh.

Good luck,

Matt

[fishmom]

Thank you Matt for your help!

Female went into the breeding net last nite.

Bought a second net today for the male.

there is apparently not one live adult brine in the state of arizona! i picked up a bottle of tigger pods at one of the lfs and put half in each net. fortunately, the mesh is as small as my brine net. i think the female was hunting a little. at least she was moving around and up the sides of the net, which she wasn't doing yesterday or this morning. I am actually hopeful about her. the male however, is flat on his stomach, not propped on his fins like she is. i put pods right in front of him and he didn't react.

i am using a lot of zoecon in the food mix. even if just accidentally, the female is slurping a little of the 'juice' when i am target feeding. the male hasn't shown anything at all yet.

baby brines are just starting to hatch and i will put some in tonite just in case.

keeping my fingers crossed...

[mpedersen]

Certainly TRY The live baby brine...the worst case is that they don't eat it. Other poeple have had luck with it although I haven't.

Good luck!

Matt

[fishmom]

Honestly, without letting my potential negativity near the 'kids', I have hope for the girl. I think the boy may be finished. Scathing letter already written and sent to the big box store's corporate headquarters. I still consider myself a yutz and a newbie who has no business with one of these fish - and yet the store promotes them to people even 'yutzier' than me. very sad...

(btw: the scooter breeding guy is on a local forum. i have asked him to join this one to tell of his exploits. you say 9 in 2 years is awsome? and here I was thinking he wasn't very good. refer back to my admission about being a yutz i am guilty as charged! )

[mpedersen]

you say 9 in 2 years is awsome? and here I was thinking he wasn't very good.

I've tried breeding Mandarins on and off for I think 4 years now? I've only managed to get 1 to live to 10-14 days. They are terribly difficult for a landlocked hobbyist to raise on something like rotifers alone. And yes, this guy is likely the first in the world to rear the species then, as most people focus on S. splendidus or S. picturatus because they are obviously a higher-value fish.

It'd be great for him to share how he's doing it (if he wants to) becuase it would add to our collective knowledgebase...

[fishmom]

new development: the male has a cloudy swollen eye. any warning labels for using maracin 2 for it in case it is bacterial?? i think it safe to assume stress is a factor here....

[mpedersen]

new development: the male has a cloudy swollen eye. any warning labels for using maracin 2 for it in case it is bacterial?? i think it safe to assume stress is a factor here....

I've used Maracyn SW with Mandarins IN my reef tanks, but have never used Maracyn II with them.

[fishmom]

only had maracyn 2 so out of nothing left to try, i used it last nite. last feeding attempt before lights out was arctipods. the female approached it, but i can't swear she ate it.

this morning, live baby brine zoecon'd overnite and more arctipods. the boy is starting to move around - very little, but moving just the same. though not up on his fins completely, he is no longer on his stomach. female is moving a lot more, but still not as much as the scooters. she actually turned and looked at me this morning, which is the first time ever. she is doing a little 'hunting' but because age is setting in and i can't see a bus in front of me, i can't tell if she is finding the brine. i can't see too well looking through the net from the side and the water ripples skew the cview from above. i have to hope that with more mobility that they are eating something!

if this is not the appropriate place to post this, or if this thread is not appropriate for the forum, please let me know. i don't want my newbie stupidity to hinder a relationship with future gurus that may help me to be a grandma with my scooters

[mpedersen]

How are things going with the Mandarins?

Also, do you have any links to your Local Scooter Blenny Breeder?

[fishmom]

the male died friday.

the female is still going. she is moving around a little more than when she came in, but still not much. i didn't want her to die in a breeder net, so when the male died, i released her into the 10g tank, where she is alone. she wasn't even trying to eat in the breeder net anyway.

i took the breeder net/sitting near food and the mandarin diner techniques and combined them into a little over the edge force feeding method. enough water to cover the girl to twice her height, add enough baby brine and copepods that they form a cloud, then I put her in it, and keep her there for a timed 15 minutes. the act of breathing makes her take in the food whether she likes it or not. she has actually put on a little weight, but she is still listless. there are loose pods in the tank, but she does not hunt them.

as of the posting of this reply, she has been here for exactly 8 days to the hour.

i have been polling on the local board about whether i am delaying the indevitable or whether force feeding her, which is what this amounts to, is cruel. my personal internal morality meter isn't sure. she is being stressed when i catch her to force feed twice a day. she is more active in that each time she puts up a greater fight when i go to catch her. that being said, am i just giving her the energy to fight and not live? i can't help but wonder if i am evil. if I am doing the right thing, how long do i give her to start to eat on her own? she can't have a real life if the only way she eats is if she is not given the choice. i just don't know when the appropriate amount of time has past to decide to pull the plug.

for trying so hard to save her, i really feel bad about myself! am i the only one who worries so much, and has so much self doubt over my actions - for what amounts to a $6 fish?

re: the local guy. i did pm to post here, and i also submitted the link to the board since there is so much great info on this forum, even for non-breeders.

[mpedersen]

the male died friday.

Bummer, but not unexpected perhaps....

the female is still going...enough water to cover the girl to twice her height, add enough baby brine and copepods that they form a cloud, then I put her in it, and keep her there for a timed 15 minutes. the act of breathing makes her take in the food whether she likes it or not.

Hmm...interesting idea. I applaud the ingenuity, although I wonder if the "food" she breaths in will just get expelled through the gills rather than swallowed.

she is being stressed when i catch her to force feed twice a day. she is more active in that each time she puts up a greater fight when i go to catch her. that being said, am i just giving her the energy to fight and not live? i can't help but wonder if i am evil. if I am doing the right thing, how long do i give her to start to eat on her own?

Well, I'd say the better approach would be to put her back in the breeder net, and then you can create this "food saturated evironment force feeding" event by simply raising up the breeder net for a time...and you can remove the food afterwards.

re: the local guy. i did pm to post here, and i also submitted the link to the board since there is so much great info on this forum, even for non-breeders.

Ah, but what's the local forum(?), I want to go check it out!!!

[fishmom]

she died this morning

thanks for your help. i can't say i didn't try...

www.azreef.com is the local board.