Centropyge argi Breeding Attempt (Log) - Take #2!

[mpedersen]

4-25-07 - Well, along with my new Royal Gramma pair 1 large and 2 small Cherubfish / Pygmy Angelfish, Centroypge argi, were delivered by the Fed Ex man Ken Nedimyer of Sea Life Inc (http://www.sealifeinc.net) was great about my size requests, providing me with the 1 larger and 2 smallest pygmys he had in stock. The main reason to add yet more fish into an already crowded tank was simply that I needed more active "algae control" and nothing takes care of algae like pygmy angelfish and small tangs...

The fish were in the tank by noon, and by early afternoon they were already feeding. This is my 2nd attempt at setting up a small harem (trio) in a 24 gallon nanocube...the first time around they all dropped dead in a week from bacterial infections that literally showed up on a fish and killed it within hours (and the tank has a 24 watt UV on it). Hopefully things will go better this time around. If I can figure out where I posted my earlier attempt, I'll link it up here ->

During drip acclimation the two smaller ones were already showing signs of aggression / displaying flared fins etc. I did not see this behavior between the large one and either of the small ones, so that could bear out a theory that the 2 smaller ones are the same sex and the larger one is a different sex, basically making this a 1 male / 2 female group based on what we know about Centropyge. I vaguely recall reading somewhere that C. argi males have proportionally more orange on their face....I'll have to look at my group and see if there are any differences in that department.

So time for some pix. Here they are, about to go through drip acclimation. Probably the only pictures I'll get of the 3 of them all together at the same time for quite a while.





FWIW,

Matt

[David M]

My partner Jeff has 3 in his 270 reef, they spawn nightly. The male spawns with both females. The females have little to do with each other and for the most part keep a good distance. When they do cross paths there is aggression. It is so regular that the other fish in the tank now recognize the spawning ritual and get lined up for the free food they know is comming

[mpedersen]

4-26-07 - Well, 36 hours in and NO DEATHS YET. All the angels are foraging and eating just about anything I feed to the tank..couldn't ask for more willing tank inhabitants.

Aggression isn't bad, I think these 3 angels are still figuring out the dynamics in the tank..i.e. there are a few split fins but it's just as possible that they came from the Black Ocellaris or White Tips as another Cherubfish. I would think setting these up in a larger tank like David's partner has would be completely EASY. Heck, C. argi was the first angelfish I was aware of being private spawned by a hobbyist...when I was 16 or 17 I set a customer up with a 2nd C. argi (not knowing he already had one...2 angels was completely taboo at that time)...2 months later he had them spawning in his 90 gallon Oceanic.

There is a definite size-based hierarchy already established among the trio, with big one on top and little one on the bottom. It's obviously very early, but I'm keeping my fingers crossed. Tomorrow I may actually be able to get a picture of all 3 of them together (if I'm patient!)

Matt

[Peter Schmiedel]

Matt,

I hope you don not have them in the same tank as any clown fish? My 1,3 was first harassing my black O couple where the male argi really did it on purpose to tease the big O female so that they could never spawn. After I removed them the O's still don't spawn In the tank I placed the argi I also had to add the chrysogaster - same game here the argi's where really bitchy to the fish!

So better keep an eye on them

[mpedersen]

Actually, the 3 argi are sharing the tank with 2 Black Ocellaris and 2 White Tips and for the most part, the 4 clowns are running the show in this tank....

4-28-07 - Here's some pics I got this afternoon:







So far the group dynamic is still staying the same, with the two smaller ones occasionally going at it (middle one chasing smaller one) and the largest one just hanging around. Other than some missing scales, I'm surprised that there hasn't been any worse 'damage' (i.e. no shredded or split fins). Things are going well so far...

Matt

[tanglovers]

Great looking group Matt, will definetely be following this thread, they are one of my favorite dwarf angels. Also what types of corals are you goi to keep with them? They can be known to nip at LPS right?

[mpedersen]

Right now, they're in with Cynaria, Plerogyra, Acropora, Montipora, Xenia, Ricordea, Zooanthus...they only thing they seem to touch is Hair Algae It is my understanding that C. argi is one of the most coral friendly pygmy species.

All seems to be going well with the group so far..

Matt

[KathyL]

...they only thing they seem to touch is Hair Algae ...Matt

Some people have all the luck! Nothing eats hair algae except the fish in Matt's tank.

[Colby]

Matt you are ridiculous...

That is so awesome. I certainly envy you...

On the other hand you do give me hope that I will be able to take at least a few fish with me to HSU in my 12 AP...anyway I could convince you to post a few full pics of the tank??? Please please please...


Colby

[mpedersen]

Hey, I just want to stress that this is VERY experimental. My first Centropyge attempt was doing Flames ([img]Centropyge%20loricula[/img]) in a 24 gallon. That ended with the mysterious death of the "female" who went from competely healthy one evening to a shreaded corpse the next morning. Then there was my first attempt at C. argi in a 24...ended up with all dead in a week due to bacterial disease. So, so far, these experimental circumstances haven't produced anything like the results I'm hoping for...

MP

[Peter Schmiedel]

Matt,

as they are really small . no problem to be expected yet. Lets wait until one has turned out to be a male. I am curious to see if you face the same problems, as basically we both neglect the space these fish need

[mpedersen]

So Peter, if I understand correctly, your problem with the C. argi was not aggression towards each other, but them interfering with OTHER fish spawning (i.e. Black Ocellaris Clownfish)? Is your 1m/3f group of C. argi spawning?

Matt

[DrHsu]

argis are notoriously aggressive. Good thing they are small! I used to have one that was pretty much the king in the tank after a little while and would bully any fish that it could.

Missed out on buying a spawning pair of argis and flame angel just a while back

[mpedersen]

Hmm. My first experience with C. argi was in a tank rated at 12 gallons, actually held around 6 of living space, and it shared that 6 gallons with a small Atlantic Hawkfish, a baby Regal Angelfish and a few other fish (I recall it being 7 fish in total; I had a pair of something in there..can't remember what they were at the moment, but they'll come to me...). That tank was set up for over a year and aggression was NEVER an issue with ANY of the fish.

The other thing that I may have "going for me" is that the C. argi are currently the "most recent" introductions to the tank (and actually the SMALLEST fish in the tank!), a tank that has been up and running at least 1.5 years now (with one move a bit over a year ago)...granted the community has come and gone as I shift things aorund and fish jump etc, but basically the 3 C. argi all went into the tank on the bottom of the totem pole.

So far they're still ALL ALIVE and still no major fin damage etc. Things are looking far better this time around!

Matt

[Peter Schmiedel]

Matt,

I have had a spawning 1,2 before my clown fish time. They where fairly aggressive, by current 1,3 I did not see spawning yet - but I have to admit that i don't watch them that close currently. Also it is rather easy to see if they spawn as the male get almost white on his sides

I keep them in 51G tanks which I consider way to small for any dwarf angel and that might be the cause. It is significant however that all my dwarf angels (C. argi, C. loricula, C flavisima) are specially bad temperate towards all kind of clown fish. Therefore next fish moving is scheduled I will only place them together with premnas or members of the clarkii complex.

[mpedersen]

It is significant however that all my dwarf angels (C. argi, C. loricula, C flavisima) are specially bad temperate towards all kind of clown fish. Therefore next fish moving is scheduled I will only place them together with premnas or members of the clarkii complex.

I guess since they outlawed Cock Fighting, Pygmy Angelfish vs. Maroon Clownfish is the best entertainment we're going to get? I'm putting my money on the 6" long female maroon!!!

On a more serious response, that's really interesting about the color change...I hadn't read anything about that. I'll keep an eye out for that as my fish start to settle in and fatten up!

FWIW,

Matt

[mpedersen]

5-1-07 - looks like things are going well. The 3 C. argi are out and about more, constantly grazing ON algae (Yes Kathy, HAIR ALGAE among others!). Basically, they seem to have settled in. The largest showed up this morning with a small chunk missing from his tail...I suspect a clownfish as they seem to be the most aggressive/dominant fisn in the tank right now.

I've also noticed some solidifcation of the heirarchy in the group..i.e. if the smallest one finds itself in the immediate vicinity of the middle fish, it's fins clamp and it swims on by...no aggressive display "required" on the part of the middle sized fish. So basically, the small one has learned to appease the middle one. Looks like I have the potential makings of a good 1m/2f harem, but of course that may take much more time and some confirmed fertile spawnings before I could truly be accurate in applying male/female designations.

It's only been 6 days!

FWIW,

Matt

[mpedersen]

5-1-07 - Peter, does the "white flank" kinda look like the lower half of the flank turning pale / glossy? I.e., if you took a Flameback Angelfish (C. acanthops) and made the orange back into blue, and the blue flank into white?

I got home at 9:10 PM and looked at the largest Centropyge argi in the tank...it briefly had significantly lighter flanks. I tried to get a picture of it, but by the time I was set, I had disturbed the fish enough to the point where the "white" coloration disappeared.

FWIW,

Matt

[Peter Schmiedel]

Hi Matt,

sorry for late reply, job kept me busy

Yes, that describes it very good and I about what I observed. It can get to glossy that I first expected the fish to die until I realized what he was up to.

[mpedersen]

Hi Matt,
Yes, that describes it very good and I about what I observed. It can get to glossy that I first expected the fish to die until I realized what he was up to.

Peter, the way you describe it confirms to me that what I saw was indeed some courtship coloration! SWEET!

I have not seen any spawns, nor have I again seen this coloration show up (but I haven't been really watching all that closely after lights out). What I do want to say is that things are DEFINITELY working out so far, with 3 C. argi swimming around the tank, constantly grazing, and rarely paying much attention to each other. The hierarchy seems pretty "set". No frayed fins on any fish for at least a few days now! It seems that ALL 3 of these fish have grown since their introduction..at least it really seems that they've all grown a bit!

Matt

[mpedersen]

5-10-07 - Around 10:30 PM this evening, we had our first FULL ON VERIFIABLY NO DOUBT COURTSHIP going on between the largest and middle sized C. argi! There may very well have been a spawn, but suffice it to say things were really busy around here, Renee had to use my desk, I couldn't sit and watch, the vantage point was bad, Alice kept ringing the bell (to go outside), I started monkeying with lighting trying to get something better, the camera wouldn't cooperate, you name it, it went wrong this evening, at least on MY end.

I got ONE halfway OK video of the courtship taking place, but it's short, jittery, and too much reflections are coming off the front glass. Check it out on YouTube at ->
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aA0QdRg4Qsc - for what it's worth, YouTube automatically "adjusted" the levels on the video, which means it's TOO DARK to really see all the detail that the original has. So I guess until I get better video and pictures, this is really only good as "proof" that I'm not a total BS'r


I got a couple pictures as well, although you can't really tell much from them. Here are the KEY items.

A video capture reveals that the male was actually working both females over...it's barely visible, but this is the male nuzzling the smallest fish's abdomen.


The only other things worth noting is that the "white" coloration did again show up on the flanks of the courting male (thanks for that tip-off Peter) and the females are very robust/rotund compared to their normal selves. In other words, it seems that healthy, breeding conditioned female marine fish so often look like they have abdominal illness





This one last picture is horrible, but it shows how close the pair came to the surface. This very well may have been a spawning, but the camera was TOTALLY focused on the glass (picking up streaks you literally cannot normally see!!!)



FWIW,

Matt

[mpedersen]

I just did the math on it, it's only been 15 or so days since these fish were shipped up from Florida and plunked in my 24 gallon cube!

Man, marine fish are SLUTTY!

Matt

[mpedersen]

2 more "BTW" comments. First, the mandarins were dancing as well this evening.

The other thing I wanted to point out was what I noticed that had CHANGED that caused me to take note and sit and watch the tank this evening, BEFORE I saw the "white" courtship dress on the male. Here's a repeat of 2 pictures I posted above. Pay attention to the middle sized fish, aka. the big female, who is in roughly the same positioning and the same spot in the tank, in the upper left of both pictures.

First, about 1.5 weeks ago:


Tonight:


One LAST thought. I remember sitting, looking at the tank a couple days ago and thinking "man, those angelfish really have GROWN". It even appears that way in the pictures too, and I'm not talking JUST the bulge in the female.

Diet wise, in case anyone is wondering, here's a quick rundown:

Pellets:
Formula 1, Formula 2, Spectrum, ORA

Frozen Foods:
Various brands/types of Mysis & Brine Shrimp, Cyclops, Cyclopeze.

And they sit and graze on hair algae and bryopsis all freakin day.

Water quality as of last night, from memory:

pH 8.0
alkalinity 4 meq/L
SG 1.025
Nitrite = 0 ppm
Nitrate = 30 ppm
Iodide = 0 ppm
Iron = 0 (undetectable)
Phosphate = 0.2 ppm
Silicate = 0 ppm (undetectable)
Temps - low 80's F (i.e. 81-84F)

FWIW,

Matt

[mpedersen]

As of 5-11-07, 11:00 PM on the dot, I have to ask you...

How is YOUR Friday night?!





Oh wait, let me clean that picture up for you just a wee bit...




WHOOOOOOOOOOOO HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!

Matt

[BaboonScience]

Nice,
What potion do you use in those tanks?
C. argi are my personal favorite dwarf angels also.