Oxymonacanthus longirostris - BREEDING LOG (Survival log)

[mpedersen]

2-6-08

The new "female" is simply chowing down today - she took a ton of frozen brine, and then went after the live brine as well. Hopefully this newfound love for foods other than SPS corals will be her saving grace.

The existing "male" is NOT doing as well in some respects - he still shows no interest in live or frozen foods, but was eating the hair algae and continues to constantly nip at the many SPS frags in the tank, today focusing solely on a piece of Green Slimer that has all but died off and turned white...

FWIW,

Matt

[mpedersen]

Video of the "female" feeding on brine shrimp - if only the male would eat like this!

[youtube]6R83SKOcVO4[/youtube]

FWIW,

Matt

[mpedersen]

2-8-08

I made a very unusual Friday evening stop at a shop I typically only get to see on Mondays...it's on my way home from work. I stopped in to get some live brine...I want to keep it on hand while continuing to TRY to get the larger filefish to do something other than eat algae (which while it's consuming it constantly, the feces come out flourescent forest green...it's the oddest shade of green you've seen)!

Well, to my surprise, the shop had TWO Orange-Spotted Filefish...I guess it must be the season for them or something as I haven't seen these in local shops in a year or two! Well, I took a close look at the two they had and something hit me. ONE of them looked very much like the two I already have, and the OTHER looked noteably different than any of the others I'd seen. This one had the orange in the dorsal and anal fins between the spines (a known characteristic of MALES in this species). It also had a much more "embelished" ventral flap..it was orange in the center, but had much more white spotting on black than the three I'd worked with.

That's when it hit me - maybe this is the first male I've actually seen, and the two I have right now are FEMALES?! So, I bought the one that was looking "male" and brought it home, acclimated it and put it in the tank.

The other noteable difference in this one from the other two was the shape of the ventral flap...in the two already here, the ventral flap comes down and angles back up to the body, kindof like this:

\/

In the new one, the flap comes down but then goes straight back up, perpendicular, like this:

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I also noticed that there seemed to be a longer area between the ventral flap and the ventral fin in the two fish I have, maybe 2 MM, whereas the distance is maybe half (1mm) in the new fish.

So, all signs POINT to this new fish being male, and the two existing fish being FEMALE.

So we can keep all these fish straight, I should recap the fish and assign them an "ID" for the moment..I could "name" them but that's really Renee's department. So here goes:

File #1 - First filefish I picked out, thought originally to be male, largest one I've seen, only picks at hair algae and corals.
File #2 - The one I thought to be female which died after only 48 hours here.
File #3 - the third one, the one I thought could be male or female, which I brought home about a week later, and now eats brine shrimp and mysis with gusto.
File #4 - the one I brought home this evening which is most assuredly what I believe to be a male.

OK, so we all know which fish is which. Well, #3 immediately started picking a fight with #4. #1 kinda hung back. #3 showed a lot of interest in #4...I have some video which I'll post ASAP (along with #1 mowing down the hair algae).

So, if #1 and #3 pretty much get along, #1 being the dominant in the pair, but then I introduce #4, a likely "known" male, and #3 goes ballistic on #4, this leads me to think the following:

#1 - F
#3 - M
#4 - M

What do you guys think?

Of course, this all could get more interesting still...what if Filefish are Hermaphrodites?

[mpedersen]

BTW, I set up a few Acropra frag skeletons this evening, coated them in Ocean Nutrition Dwarf Angel diet. They're sitting in the fridge, and hopefully it'll cake on and harden a bit - going to offer them tomorrow and *maybe* we'll get a reaction?!

Matt

[mpedersen]

Video of #1 nipping at a Rusty Gorgonian and then chowing down on Hair Algae, shot on 2-7-08

[youtube]qap3UF-k2hQ[/youtube]

[mpedersen]

2-8-08 - Video of the aggressive interaction between the new filefish (#4) and #3.

[youtube]e9sUTfJs5JU[/youtube]

I should note that after the lights went out, I moved the new one (#4) into a breeder net, just to be safe. I'm still pretty convinced, at least based on the surface appearances, that I do have 2F and 1M; this initial aggression could simply be more territorial and less to do with both fish being the same sex...afterall the aggressor is the one that eats like a pig!

FWIW,

Matt

[mpedersen]

One more note - based on this aggression, I almost want to go back and just pick up the other one at the LFS - those two got along just fine in the dealer's tanks, so maybe if I currently have 2m/1f, that'd make 2m/2f?!

I should mention that the moment #4 hit the tank it started nipping at everything, coral, algae, caulerpa, you name it. Certainly wanted to eat. This may be another "winner"....

Crazy experiments....I gotta say I'm enjoying the challenge these fish present.

Matt

[mpedersen]

2-9-08

I let the #4 back into the tank today, and #3 and #4 started squaring off. If you pay close attention to the video I posted yesterday, #3 and #1 start fighting briefly when #3 got all riled up.

Well, the same thing happened today, but then #4 and #1 started going at it too. I'm keeping on eye on them, the only thing I feel confident in anymore is that pretty much #1 and #3 will get along OK in the tank together, but placing #4 in causes all sorts of commotion.

Some other news, on the feeding front, #4 has taken a viscious interest in the Rusty Gorgonian. I reintroduced a piece of Orange Digitata, and for the first time I've been able to see the feeding...#1 is VERY keen on it and appears to SUCK the polyps out of their homes with deadly efficiency...and in both cases I've seen them spit out bits of polyp, so I KNOW they are indeed eating the polyps.

FWIW,

Matt

[mpedersen]

So it's been an hour, all the fighting has subsided for the most part, and now there are 3 filefish running around nipping at corals and stuff...I should note that I placed a piece of Green Slimer skeleton in the tank, coated in Ocean Nutrition's Dwarf Angel diet, and #4 has been nipping at it pretty regularly..hopefully he's getting some food! To see what this stuff looks like, here's a pick of the frags I coated up:



And here are several pictures of the 3 filefish. Pay close attention to their differences in colorations and shapes, specially in the ventral flap and anal / ventral fins:

Filefish #1






Filefish #3




Filefish #4








FWIW,

Matt

[mpedersen]

So here is the big problem I've identified..the frags are problematic ONLY because the FIRE CLOWNS like to move stuff around in the tank...they've become constant diggers, and they tend to BURY the frags!

So I think my next step is to bite the bullet and get a colony or two, unless someone has some browned out or dead aquacultured skeletons...that's really all I need! I pulled the digitata frag out after only a couple hours..I want to see if I can recoup frags for re-feeding, kinda like making my SPS tank a refugium for Filefish food!

FWIW,

Matt

[mpedersen]

Big news, this evening, #1 has started eating Rod's Food that I've mashed onto the acropora frags. This is a big step considering I've had this fish for 2 weeks now and I haven't seen it eat anything other than SPS polyps and hair algae!

Matt

[mpedersen]

2-10-08

EVERYONE is feeding today. #3 continues to grab brine shrimp and now mysis (Hikari) out of the water column. #3 remains ROBUST and it's hard to say for sure, but it looks like those areas showing signs of emaciation, i.e. behind the head and along the snout, are filling back in. Of course, this may be my own optimism.

#1 and #4 are chowing down on Ocean Nutrition Dwarf Angel formula that's been smeared on the acropora frag skeletons. Both have full bellies...not fat like #3, but certainly no signs of pinching in at the belly as is often seen on fish like this.

So all good signs. The montipora frags I removed from their tank and placed back into the SPS tank clearly show signs of munching, but perhaps they'll recover and then I can offer them back in again.

So now my thoughts are starting to turn more long-term. Now that all three are eating, it's a matter of giving them what they need to put their weight back on and hopefully live LONG LIVES with me! Of course, this may go from a survival log to a BREEDING LOG in the future if I play my cards right!

I should say, watching these fish interact, the initial aggression was likely more an issue of simply introducing a new fish. There seems to be no real aggression, nothing that would cause discomfort or death to the 3 files.

I'm also back to considering that we have 1M/2F, #4 being male, #1 and #3 both being females. #4 and #1 hang out together now, and #3, which would be the "smaller" of the 2 females, seems to be ostracized from the pair. The current behaviors and patterns of "dominance" suggest this may be the case so far...

Well, that's the news!

Matt

[mpedersen]

http://www.breedersregistry.org/database/OXYLON01.htm - I can't believe I didn't go check the good 'ole Breeder's Registry before! This is a great report, especially considering the notes on care/diet.

I guess this just goes to show you the value of posting a spawning report, even if there is no subsequent followthrough (Yes, this is my musing that I WISH the Breeder's Registry still accepted these types of reports instead of now requiring you to fully rear the offspring).

Anyway, interesting to note how similar this all sounds to Iris's experiences with her Green Filefish!

FWIW,

Matt

[aomont]

Nice to see the three are doing better ! As I was reading I could bet you would go back to buy #4.
As for the Breeders Register, did you see this information Matt ?

Frequency of spawning: daily
Egg description: Fluorescent green "blob" ~ 10 mm across

Spawning tank size (liter): 37

Have you passed by this paper ?
Barlow, G.W., 1987. Spawning, eggs and larvae of the longnose filefish Oxymonacanthus longirostris, a monogamous coralivore. Environ. Biol. Fish. 20(3):183-194.
Unfortunately I don´t have access to it... If I happen to have I´ll let you know.

Anderson.

[aomont]

Adult diet: Frozen brine shrimp, grazed on algae. Occasionally frozen lobster eggs, bloodworms and mussels. Fed twice daily. Maintained with "bubble coral". Never observed any polyp feeding.

Sorry to repost but any chance you try the bubble coral thing ?
Anderson.

[mpedersen]

Adult diet: Frozen brine shrimp, grazed on algae. Occasionally frozen lobster eggs, bloodworms and mussels. Fed twice daily. Maintained with "bubble coral". Never observed any polyp feeding.

Sorry to repost but any chance you try the bubble coral thing ?
Anderson.

Anderson, I'm not sure you're understanding that right. I believe the intent of the last two sentences is, "There is a bubble coral in the tank, but I have not seen it feeding on the bubble coral polyp".

In this tank, there are Fungia, Turbinaria, Zooanthids, Galaxia, and a Gorgonian. All of these files focus the majority of their attention on the SPS coral frags (Acropora & Montipora)

FWIW,

Matt

[aomont]

You´re right !
Anderson.

[mpedersen]

#1 just figured out that Hikari Mysis was food...he took two pieces of it off the bottom in the vicinity of the SPS frags, chewed it up and only spit out the tail from one.

Again, I must reiterate, now that they're feeding, now it's time to get them eating the RIGHT stuff!

Matt

[mpedersen]

2-11-08

So today they were fed more Ocean Nutrition Dwarf Angel diet...by the evening #1 had a BIG FAT BELLY like #3. #4 looked filled out, but not gorged. Another day or two and I bet #4 is on the EAT YOURSELF SILLY bandwagon.

I posted a question to which I haven't been able to get an answer in the Broodstock Forum - http://www.marinebreeder.org/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=1999 - basically, is there any basic nutritional profile for Acroporid Flesh, and the secondary followup, is there any recipe for a Corallivorous Fish REPLACMENT DIET out there? Maybe in the Zoos / Aquariums? Afterall, the problem with corallivorous fish has always been a two part issue, the first getting them to feed on something OTHER than the coral itself (acheived that!) and the second apparently to get them the appropriate nutrition they need for long term survival (which at this point we I just don't know...)

FWIW,

Matt

[mpedersen]

Oh, and a "BTW" - I was reading through this PDF - http://www.int-res.com/articles/meps/199/m199p263.pdf - basically, IF I were to get a spawn on these, we'd be looking at the eggs hatching "after sunset, 2 days after spawning". More importantly, in looking at the larval sketches and the data, it appears we're looking at a larvae around 2.5-3mm in length, with unpigmented eyes, questionable on mouth or gut, and a big yolk...so basically a nice prolarvae. I also picked up that 30C might be a better incubation temperature which would result in larger, better formed hatchlings!

FWIW,

Matt

[mpedersen]

Not that it's all that hard to find, but I've been keeping notes on the sexing of this species in another thread - http://www.marinebreeder.org/phpbb/view ... 7218#17218

BTW, I'm glad I convince Renee to let me get these guys...they are rapidly becoming something I'm really proud of, heck, just that I have them feeding on prepared foods makes me feel lucky! Renee loves blue fish, and it took a little while, but she now really enjoys the files too!

FWIW,

Matt

[mpedersen]

2-12-08

Well the big news today is that #1 now takes brine and mysis in the water column and will even chase it down. I've been soaking these foods in Selcon; the extra fat and HUFAs will helpfully put some meat back on the bones of these filefish. After looking at some pictures of this species in the wild, mine are still woefully thin!

I also just dropped 2 half cubes of Ocean Nutrition Dwarf Angel diet into the tank by the SPS frags...it seems that they may not even need the skeleton to recognize this as food now, although the skeleton I believe still helps keep the food in place!

FWIW,

Matt

[mpedersen]

2-13-08

It has been constant, all day, AGGRESSION. Or maybe 'territoriality'. In any case, #4, the "known male", despite being smaller and thinner, is the ringleader. He is protecting the "sps frag patch", chowing down only intermetitently when he's not swimming backwards towards #1 or #3, chasing them off. He happens to be the thinnest of the 3 as well, which has me concerned that he should spend more time actually eating and less time protecting the food source, so I added MORE FOOD in, the Orange Digitata and Lump frags came back from the SPS tank as well...whatever I can do to keep him head down in the food trough!

Matt

[mpedersen]

So another new concern or just observation perhaps - these fish are breathing rather rapidly. #3 is the fastest, followed by #1 and #4. All have pretty fast respiration rates. When I compare them to the Green Mandarins (Synchiropus picturatus) in the tank, I'd say that the filefish are breathing at least twice as fast.

This has me concerned - are they breathing heavy from stress? Disease (Amyloodinium)? They show no outwards signs of either other than the respiration rate itself. Could it be that this species simply has a fast respiration rate that I didn't notice before?

[mpedersen]

So quick followup - I looked at the videos posted here - in most cases the detail isn't enough to really see the respiration. You can kindof see #3 breathing in the video shot on 2-6, and it LOOKS like even back then #3 had the same really high respiration rate. I'm going to look at the original videos to see if I can get any better observations (they're twice the size and not compressed by YOUTUBE! )

One other note on behavior - at night, they are all hanging together

Matt