Pterapogon kaudernii - Incubating Bangaii Cardinalfish Eggs

[mpedersen]

Someday I'll go through all my various cardinalfish threads and do a massive breeding log, but in the meantime, here's the latest developments. BOTH pairs spawned in the last week, and I've set up another artificial rearing trial. I managed to capture the eggs of our Captive Bed Pair the same day they were spawned. Here's what they looked like at 8 hours post spawning (they were all still part of an adhesive mass). This is the first official and undeniable proof that the Captive Bred Pair is fertile!

These images were shot with the QX5 on Friday night (1-4-07) after 11:00 PM.


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[mpedersen]

It took longer, but I managed to capture the WC male this evening. The eggs are just over 4 days old, around 98 hours. Unlike the eggs I obtained from the CB pair (which were newly spawned), the eggs of the WC pair were all loose.

Again, shot on 1-6-08 around 8:30 PM, these are 98 hour old bangaii eggs from the WC pair.

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[mpedersen]

So in both cases, the eggs were obtained by simply netting the males (OK, to be fair, I should say that netting the males out of my tanks took HOURS, hardly "simple")! Once the males were in the nets, they spit the eggs quite quickly. It then became a priority to first get the male back into the tank before thrasing around and destroying all the newly spit eggs.

The eggs from the CB fish have been in artificial incubation since Friday night. Right off the bat a couple died, turning cloudy, then milky, then white. I had been running Maracyn SW (Erythromyacin) in the tank. Despite that, as much as half the eggs had perished by this evening. Is it bacteria / fungus? Is it the incubation scheme? Is the flow too much or too little?

So I'm stuck. I'm going to post up some video of the eggs in incubation. Based on what I've seen elsewhere, this actually looked like a promising setup, and after the fact, I realized Witt had written about a similar setup in his book! Video and explanation to follow!

[FMarini]

matt- the folks I know doing ex vivo incubation of the banggai spawn have treated the eggs w/ antifungal agents first.

BTW we (the FBF) had been talking about BC egg stripping back in 2000.
Guy (bangguy), posted his first attempt in 2002, then Stephen (coraldynamics) posted his results and movie back in the "old days". Hes had repeated success, (see above)

[mpedersen]

I do have a link to a conversation Guy and I had around this issue. The tank I have unfortunately also is holding some clowns, so it's not like the eggs could be sterilized and thrown into a sterile tank for incubation. I've been wrestling with the Video Camera - can't get the video out of it to post up. It'll make more sense when I get it posted!

Matt

[mpedersen]

So, my computer and video camera were being much more agreeable this evening. It's a day laten (posting this on Monday), but here's the video I shot of the eggs in my "tumblers" Sunday Evening:

1-6-08

[youtube]XsJfmLzdcdk[/youtube]

1-7-08

It's now Monday evening, and the eggs from the captive bred pair are all dead. The eggs harvested more recently from the wild caught pair are still alive, and if I'm seeing it right, they have hatched and are what we'd call "wrigglers". Basically, it looks like the tail is hanging off the egg, basically a prolarvae with an enormous yolk sack?! There is one egg that clearly died today.

My BIG CONCERN is the entire loss of the captive-bred pair's eggs. I am worried what this means for the remaining eggs from the wild caught pair. What do I do, what do I treat with? Maracyn clearly did not have a positive impact! I have all sorts of other dissinfection / anti fungal / anti bacterial options on hand, but considering I have probably more than 2 weeks of incubation to go, I need something that can be placed in the tank long term!!!

HELP!

Matt

[joefrith]

Wow Matt, I know how long and frustrating its been with these Bangaii's and you might finally, hopefully have success!! Good luck. I'm rootin for you. And that egg tumbler looks awesome along with that hungry clown.

[mpedersen]

No advice as to a standard long-term anti-fungal / anti-bacterial? I think I have it all on hand (i.e. plent of Meth Blue, Formalin, Malachite Green, Maracyn, LifeGuard)...I'm hoping someone out there has some experience and has a proven solution - back in the Cichlid Days it was Methelyne Blue and it almost always worked, but has not worked yet with my past attempts.

I lost at least one more egg from the WC pair overnight. I should mention that after rethinking things, there is NO WAY they could be wriggers yet, that's just not how bangaiis are supposed to develop. That means what I'm seeing is either some sort of adhesive filament or some sort of parasite / problem!

[FMarini]

matt--- first off banggais are one of the few directly developing apogons.
Its called elutheroembyros, so not really a pro larvae, just an undeveloped fry
Interesting thing, about the WC eggs vs the captive bred. Maybe the Wc eggs contains more nutrients, from the female being "ocean fed", and your captive set are fed your tank foods. Possibly due to this, might be the WC banggai eggs contain more intrinsic resistance to fungus or bacteria

What day are you on post spawning? I have each day of banggai development photographed

[mpedersen]

matt--- first off banggais are one of the few directly developing apogons.
Its called elutheroembyros, so not really a pro larvae, just an undeveloped fry

The elutheroembryos, are the external of the egg mass or not? It appeared in some of the artificial hatching videos that they remain curled up within the outer membrane until 20+ days or so?

Interesting thing, about the WC eggs vs the captive bred. Maybe the Wc eggs contains more nutrients, from the female being "ocean fed", and your captive set are fed your tank foods.

If this was a freshly caught pair, I'd consider that. However, both pairs are fertile and I've had the WC pair for some time now (their first recorded spawn for me was 9-22-07, and I got them probably a month before that, so all told they could easily be 4 months + out of the ocean now).

I'm attributing the difference so far to collection time. The CB eggs were collected 8 hours post spawn and were all connected. The WC eggs were collected around 98 hours post spawn, and were all separate and much more developed.

The CB egg mass was pretty much fully gone by yesterday evening, so it did not make it past 3 days post spawning. THE WC eggs are now currently just shy of being 6 days post spawn - hardly out of the woods in my book. I'm still quite sure I'm going to need some external help to keep them from being destroyed by bacteria / fungus / other tiny inverts...

Possibly due to this, might be the WC banggai eggs contain more intrinsic resistance to fungus or bacteria

Interesting hypothesis...

What day are you on post spawning? I have each day of banggai development photographed

Basically 5-6 hours shy of 6 days. The WC batch was spawned between 5-6 PM on 1-2-08.

FWIW,

Matt

[mpedersen]

HOLY CRAP - I SEE EYES!!!!

Now it's personal. Now I need to know how to keep them from dying over the next 14 days!

Once again, what's my best bet for a full-tank ongoing disinfectant.

Matt

[mpedersen]

1-9-08, 11:00 AM CST, from the WC Pair:

[mpedersen]

Circumstances out of my control have lead me to a course of treatment. The nutshell story - these eggs are being incubated in the QT tank. Well, I've been keeping an eye on my largest 2 Allardi clowns. December 23rd, the newest one showed a couple spots, ICH, Amyloodinium, not sure.

Well, I threw on a 2nd UV sterilize and left. When we returned following our Holiday travels, the fish seemed to be a touch worse but for the most part seemed OK.

I removed the 2nd UV sterlizer a couple days ago and frankly, it seems to have been a bad choice. Today I noticed spots on the 2nd allardi clownfish in the tank, and as the morning has progressed, things have only gotten worse.

So the fish got pulled from the main tank and thrown in the QT with the small Allardis AND these Cardinalfish eggs. I simply cannot believe how problematic the Allardis have continued to be when it comes to Protazoan disease...this has been a problem with this species only for over a year now!

But what to do? I would've just gone to copper, but I have all sorts of stuff on hand and want to treat the protazoan infection AND do something to keep the eggs healthy. The Solution? Remove the carbon and dose 1 drop per gallon of Formalin. Witt's book recommends a 15 minute Formalin Dip for sanatizing the eggs, followed by a Hydrogen Peroxide dip (for specific instructions, see Witt's book!) . Obviously this isn't that, but that tidbit of info is what lead me to choose the Formalin treatment over Copper in this situation.

FWIW,

Matt

[rghouse]

I have run several trials in an artificial incubator I set up. The water is circulated through a UV sterilizer. the eggs are treated with iodine at 500 ppm for 30 minutes (they could go longer I suspect but this treatment has been effective) following "milking". the males will not give up the eggs, and the most effective way to strip them is to to start at the abdomen and pinch towards the snout. the earliest I can take eggs with hatching succes of 50% or better is 8 days .
I gradually increase circulation as the eggs get older, mimicing natural conditions. there is a timer with an airlift that sucks water past the eggs every 24 minutes for 3 minutes. when thier tails pop out I just run the airlift without the timer. when they are strong enough they swim out of the inc and into the tank. they can be netted and transferred as soon as their color is strong and they are swimming freely. In the inc they are packed together, like in the oral cavity.
My best batch was 42 larvae, taken at 9 days from the male. this batch also had the highest rate of absent swim bladders, over half. If anyone has any thing to offer on the swim bladder issue please chime in.
your eggs are very red, what is the broodstock diet?

[mpedersen]

the males will not give up the eggs, and the most effective way to strip them is to to start at the abdomen and pinch towards the snout.

Wow, um, that sounds almost BRUTAL to the fish and it also shouldn't even work! Stripping the eggs from the Bangaiis is a piece of cake, just as easy as stripping any small mouthbrooding African Cichlid. The key, if the fish won't give 'em up, is to hold the fish (gently of course) and pull it through the water backwards. You can also take the rounded end of a paperclip to gently pry the mouth open, and then again dip the fish headfirst into the water and pull it back out..the water, and eggs, just flow out.

the earliest I can take eggs with hatching succes of 50% or better is 8 days .

Interesting observation. Would you say day 8 is the turning point for eggs harvested earlier (i.e. if they've made it to 8 days, they have a 50% shot of hatching out)?

I gradually increase circulation as the eggs get older, mimicing natural conditions. there is a timer with an airlift that sucks water past the eggs every 24 minutes for 3 minutes.

What happens when they're not running the air pump - the eggs just sit there?

your eggs are very red, what is the broodstock diet?

Everything and then some. The red is likely from cyclopeze

Matt

[rghouse]

the incubator is open on the bottom and the pump circulates water across the bottom of the tank which jumbles them a bit.

in most cases when the males are squezed before day 8 the batch is week, or doesnt hatch at all. temp obviously plays an inportant role... as close to 86 as you can maintain

[mpedersen]

1-11-08 - I was taking a peak at the eggs (computer screen is giving me a blinding headache today)...I got visual confirmation that at least one or two of them have definitely lost their outer casings (egg shell?)...certainly looks like what we would've called a "wriggler" in any freshwater situation. I'm a bit worried that the current flow is too much for them though...

They're an hour or two shy of 11 days post spawn at this point...they remind me a lot of baby Cyphotilapia frontosa!





Matt

[mpedersen]

Holy cow..it's been 12 days, maybe more, and over the last few days there have been no really apparent losses?

FWIW, A couple days ago the eggs were tumbling way too much, so I basically had to do some fiddling with the flows over the weekend, but overall it seems that they're all doing quite well (hopefully I'm not jinxing this now).

I've been sticking to the 1 drop per gallon every other day dosing of Formalin and maybe it's actualy helping? I REALLY don't want to jinx it, but from my experience with the Africans, especially with large-egged species like Cyphotilapia, these eggs show every chance of developing through to full term offspring!

WHOO FREAKIN' HOOOO!!!!

Matt

[mpedersen]

1-16-08

14 days old now. I'm still worried about some of these "hatched" eggs that are in there, but the majority look good and it doesn't seem that we've been having much in the way of losses.



I'm still doing the drop of formalin per gallon every other day...it's not doing much for the fish that have ich/velvet though! I also did a 30% water change this evening.

FWIW,

Matt

[mpedersen]

1-17-08

OK, so it's been 15 days now. In my book, they've made it. Today, I noticed some of the ones that have "hatched" are wriggling. IF there are 20 eggs, there are maybe 5 that are "hatched out" of their shells..the rest are still curled tightly in a ball. I believe this hatching out is premature hatching, and could certainly be caused by the Formalin.

That said, the fish in the tank had a big turn for the worse today. Formalin stopped controlling the ICH / Velvet. So they got an 80%+ water change, the salinity brought down a few points, and the tank dosed with Cupramine.

I fully EXPECT this to cause problems for the bangaiis in incubation. Of course, at this point, I'd be just as worried that the larvae could be killed off by the same parasites. I'd also feel worse if I was again back to square one with Amphiprion allardi! What is it with these darn ich-velvet magnets?!?! Every other fish in the tank can be crystal clear and these guys out of nowhere break down?!

Well, we'll see how things go from here. If these were African Cichlids, these would be to the point where we could count our chickens before they hatch, so I feel like I've finally accomplished something. It won't be so difficult if I have to do it again.

FWIW,

Matt

[mpedersen]

1-20-08

Well, on the morning of 1-19, I noticed that most all the eggs had hatched out, although I think this is "early" for the hatch? They were clearly NOT fully developed yet, having large yolk sacks. I had to do the 2nd dose of Cupramine as well as put down one of the 4 Allardis, it had what looked like ICH, Velvet, and an internal infection that had one eye out of the socket and the fish unable to swim any way other than face first out of the water.

So I'm SHOCKED that the baby bangaiis seem to be putting up with all this abuse! Maracyn, Formalin, and now Cupramine, with ICH / VELVET all around them too, and yet they keep trucking.

Looking at them today, the vertical bar on the eye is coming in, and the fins are developing. Basically, take all those bangaii features and affix them to a round baloon. I had to shut down the flow to take some dead eggs and shells out with a long pipette, as well as occasionally turn the flow up higher soas to flush the dirt out of my incubation vessel. Overall, it looks like I'll have my first bangaiis very soon!

Matt

[chris melb]

Congrats Matt, this is great news

[mpedersen]

1-22-08

It's the morning of the 22nd, and it looks like I have about a dozen + baby bangaiis! Yesterday their fins started turning black, today they look like almost-fully-developed baby fish, and less like marbles with fins They're getting more restless, although not swimming yet. I assume once they start swimming in the water column it'll be time to start feeding them. I've been hatching and enriching BBS over the past few days, so there will be plenty for them when they're ready! I'll have to post up some pictures soon.

Matt

[mpedersen]

Here's the eggs at 18, 19 and 20 days post spawn. I expect them to be up and swimming in a day or two!!! :)

18 days (1-20-08):


19 days (1-21-08):


20 days (1-22-08):


Matt

[Aquaholic]

Matt, these should be very strong fish, considering what they have gone through already.
Amazing how much they have developed in the last 3 days.

Good luck with them.

Lee