O. marina as a sole food for A. tonsa?

Re: O. marina as a sole food for A. tonsa?

Postby "Umm, fish?" » Wed Jun 16, 2010 9:21 am

You know, I am trying to follow this thread and you guys are speaking well above my blonde brain, but did you say your basement is flooded with water? You waded into your basement to mess with your cultures?

You are in Colorado? Does this happen frequently?


'Tis true, unfortunately. We had a heavy snowpack this year. A couple of weeks ago we had several days of high temps, so the whole snowpack started heading down the mountains at once. (So much so that the powers-that-be closed our local water source to the college inner-tubers because the water flow is too strong.) Then we had a freak cold front come through and give us about seven days of constant strong rains. There weren't any active leaks into our basement, the water table just rose up and started seeping in from below. But it was 85 and dry yesterday and the water started receding already. A couple more days of that and we should be good to go. I found out something fun, though. We have a floor drain and sump pump, but it looks like they installed the floor drain into the _highest_ part of the floor. So the rest of the room has to fill up with water before anything goes down the drain. Grr. There are a couple of steps up from that basement to our fishroom, so the fishies are fine. But, the flood is a confluence of bad events. Which seems to describe the year I'm having pretty well.

Filtering algae is pasive,the copepod generating some flow which brings the food to the mouth.


I'll take your word for it. That sounds like an active process to me (generating flow, choosing prey size, etc.). How does one know if the copepod is not actively choosing sites in which to filter feed? But the Drs. are saying that the copepods need different techniques to take down active prey. I can go with that.

I can usually find an incredibly small protist contaminant in my cultures, but I've never seen any larger ciliates. I guess there's something good about living far from the sea.
Andy

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Re: O. marina as a sole food for A. tonsa?

Postby Luis A M » Wed Jun 16, 2010 11:45 am

JimWelsh wrote:OK, I confess. I have a Euplotes problem. It is present in most of my cultures. I do have a few cultures of O. marina that have no Euplotes showing. The copepods don't seem to eat the Euplotes, though, so they tend to build up in the copepod cultures. I DID have one O. marina culture that became entirely overrun with the Euplotes, so they CAN do damage, it appears! :evil:

Is it round,80x 70 mics,full of algae?.More typical Euplotes are smaller,oval and feed on bacteriae.And are more crawler than swimmers... :?
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Re: O. marina as a sole food for A. tonsa?

Postby Luis A M » Wed Jun 16, 2010 12:00 pm

"Umm, fish?" wrote:
Filtering algae is pasive,the copepod generating some flow which brings the food to the mouth.


I'll take your word for it. That sounds like an active process to me (generating flow, choosing prey size, etc.). How does one know if the copepod is not actively choosing sites in which to filter feed? But the Drs. are saying that the copepods need different techniques to take down active prey. I can go with that.

Well,perhaps the term pasivewas a bad choice,as all living processes are active.Meaning to stress the different feeding strategy of a clam or sponge and that of say, a lionfish :wink:
Jim is finding that Euterpina doesn´t feed on O.marina.Possibly because they lack predator strategy.
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Re: O. marina as a sole food for A. tonsa?

Postby aomont » Wed Jun 16, 2010 4:34 pm

Just found this that may help:

Behavior related feeding rates in nauplii of Oithona davisae and Acartia grani
Master Thesis in Environmental Biology from Roskilde University
By Casper Christian Ingerslev Henriksen
September 2005
http://rudar.ruc.dk/bitstream/1800/1164 ... riksen.pdf

Luis A M wrote:Don´t.PM :wink:

I could use that paper ! ;)
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Re: O. marina as a sole food for A. tonsa?

Postby JimWelsh » Wed Jun 16, 2010 11:30 pm

Luis A M wrote:
JimWelsh wrote:OK, I confess. I have a Euplotes problem. It is present in most of my cultures. I do have a few cultures of O. marina that have no Euplotes showing. The copepods don't seem to eat the Euplotes, though, so they tend to build up in the copepod cultures. I DID have one O. marina culture that became entirely overrun with the Euplotes, so they CAN do damage, it appears! :evil:

Is it round,80x 70 mics,full of algae?.More typical Euplotes are smaller,oval and feed on bacteriae.And are more crawler than swimmers... :?


OK, here's some pictures of my ciliate contaminate. The first image shows the large cilia that make me think it is a Euplotes. I say this because it looks a lot like the drawing on Page 103 of Plankton Culture Manual by Hoff & Snell, and like many of the images when I search Google images for "Euplotes" (remember to click on the images to see the whole thing without scrolling):

Ciliate 100x.JPG
Ciliate 100x.JPG (10.56 KiB) Viewed 257 times


Now, just because I can, I took some other images at 400 X magnification of this critter, and here they are:

Ciliate 400x #2.JPG
Ciliate 400x #2.JPG (51.62 KiB) Viewed 257 times


Ciliate 400x Phase Contrast.JPG
Ciliate 400x Phase Contrast.JPG (46.83 KiB) Viewed 257 times


Ciliate 400x.JPG
Ciliate 400x.JPG (44.37 KiB) Viewed 257 times


The first two are of the same individual. The last two are also of the same individual, but a different one from the first two.

I didn't get any lateral images of these, but they are VERY flat, and I observed them "cupping" around the detritus when engaging in what looked like eating behavior. The individual in the first two images was very interested in the detritus visible in the second image for food. I don't know exactly what they are eating. What I do know is that I've seen some of my O. marina cultures become overrun with these organisms, and I also can find them in my Oithona cultures. Apparently the Oithona are not interested in these as food.

EDIT: I admit it is entirely possible that Individual #1 and Individual #2 are completely different species (or even different genera).
How many pods could a copepod cope if a copepod could cope pods?
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Re: O. marina as a sole food for A. tonsa?

Postby Suzy » Thu Jun 17, 2010 7:25 am

WoW! Those photos are amazing!

Ummm, I am so sorry about your basement. Your drywall, carpeting, everything? Check out DIY.com.
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Re: O. marina as a sole food for A. tonsa?

Postby "Umm, fish?" » Thu Jun 17, 2010 8:23 am

How are they overrunning the culture? Are they in the water column? Are they eating O. marina, or just taking up resources/contributing to environmental decline?

(Suzy, thanks! The drywall's certainly toast and no telling on the framing, but there's no carpeting on the floor to get ruined. We tend to be really, really dry most of the time, so the hope is that the problem will just evaporate. Most of the water's gone after three good hot days.)
Andy

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Re: O. marina as a sole food for A. tonsa?

Postby JimWelsh » Thu Jun 17, 2010 9:44 am

They are in the water column. I don't really know if they eat the O. marina, or just out-compete them, but I have watched more than one culture go from having just a few of these to being vastly overwhelmed with these over the course of a week or so. I have several other cultures that are still free of these ciliates, and have been trying very hard to make sure they stay that way!
How many pods could a copepod cope if a copepod could cope pods?
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Re: O. marina as a sole food for A. tonsa?

Postby Luis A M » Thu Jun 17, 2010 12:15 pm

Jim,this microscope and your pics is going to be a major tool helping us in these micro-matters 8)
We need somebody expert in protists to join.We call Euplotes to any oligotriches ("few hairs",referring to the few large cilia).Possibly there are other genera.
They are large,flat and crawl on substrates where they scavenge,but are also found in the water column.They typically feed on bacteriae.Since the times of Valenti,they were proposed as fish larval food,but nothing about that was ever referred.
Now this organism of yours looks packed with algae,and thrives in an algal fed culture.They are larger than other "Euplotes" and swim more. :?
Should we cherish or regret their appearance in our O.marina cultures?Let´s see.
Are they useful?.Not sure.They could help scavenging the flagellate cultures or they could be a nice first larval food,given it´s size. :?
Are they a nuisance?Unsure either.I don´t think they could eat O.marina,but they could compete for the same food source.Getting rid of them wouldn´t be much of a problem as they could be sieved out.And O.marina is such a fast breeder that will stay in cultures where 50% of the medium is changed daily,where the ciliate would be washed out.
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Re: O. marina as a sole food for A. tonsa?

Postby "Umm, fish?" » Thu Jun 17, 2010 12:47 pm

And O.marina is such a fast breeder that will stay in cultures where 50% of the medium is changed daily,where the ciliate would be washed out.


I have had days of 100% culture water changes (two 50% changes) without issue. In fact, they seem entirely happy to endure 80-90% (at one time) water changes and are ready to split again the next day. Their population doubling time is out of control.

That's why I'm kind of shocked to hear that this ciliate is out-competing them.
Andy

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Re: O. marina as a sole food for A. tonsa?

Postby JimWelsh » Thu Jun 17, 2010 2:25 pm

This is probably because these were cultures where I wasn't doing the regular water changes. I'll try that on any cultures where I see these ciliates in the future!
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Re: O. marina as a sole food for A. tonsa?

Postby JimWelsh » Sun Jun 20, 2010 9:24 pm

The copepods I got from Luis, that were marked "A. tonsa", but turn out (LONG story -- don't ask) to be Apocyclops panamensis instead, are doing very well, having been fed nothing but RotiGrow Plus and O. marina for over three weeks now! After the first week, they started depleting all the O. marina, and I have to add more O. marina continuously, but they are doing very well without any live phyto at all! WOO HOO!

Meanwhile, the Euterpina + O. marina + phyto paste experiment is a total flop. Well, a flop at growing Euterpina. I did get a GREAT O. marina culture out of it, though. :wink:
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Re: O. marina as a sole food for A. tonsa?

Postby Greshamh » Fri Jul 09, 2010 4:53 pm

"Umm, fish?" wrote:I don't sieve them. I thought about it, but I think you'd need a centrifuge to do it.

Gresham says the ClorAmX ratio is 16 teaspoons per liter of water. Then you use that at the same ratio as the algae paste.


Can you direct me to that post where I give the formula? I am having the hardest time finding it :(
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Re: O. marina as a sole food for A. tonsa?

Postby "Umm, fish?" » Fri Jul 09, 2010 5:12 pm

I don't see it either, Gresham. I'm sure that it was in response to this thread: http://www.marinebreeder.org/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=144&t=1711

Maybe I asked you one day when I had you on the phone? But 16 teaspoons per liter was my distinct recollection. In fact, I wrote it down on a receipt I had on my desk and then took it down to the fishroom (it's gone now, of course) and that's the formula I've used ever since. I've always been annoyed at myself for never taking the trouble to figure out what it is in tablespoons so I wouldn't have to pull 16 of the dang things. :)
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Re: O. marina as a sole food for A. tonsa?

Postby Greshamh » Fri Jul 09, 2010 5:25 pm

NO I posted it, dang, missing thread :(

Guess what, I also posted it on RC, and it's gone from there as well.

What the heck man, 99 places and none have it :(
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Re: O. marina as a sole food for A. tonsa?

Postby Greshamh » Fri Jul 09, 2010 5:26 pm

Was that for normal PF Rotifer Diet or for the commercial IA version?
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Re: O. marina as a sole food for A. tonsa?

Postby "Umm, fish?" » Fri Jul 09, 2010 11:45 pm

Hoo boy. I have no clue. I don't remember discussing that. I do remember that you said that it was really, really hard to overdose, though.
Andy

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Re: O. marina as a sole food for A. tonsa?

Postby KathyL » Sat Jul 10, 2010 7:21 am

16 tablespoons per cup, 3 teaspoons per tablespoon. You are using 1/3 cup per liter.:D
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Re: O. marina as a sole food for A. tonsa?

Postby "Umm, fish?" » Sat Jul 10, 2010 6:58 pm

Thanks, Kathy. I should have figured that you'd do me right. :)
Andy

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Re: O. marina as a sole food for A. tonsa?

Postby KathyL » Sat Jul 10, 2010 10:36 pm

I hope you didn't take that in a negative way. The conversion table was right in front of me, so it was easy for me to do the math. I can never remember how many tablespoons in a cup....but i am old and my memory is not what it used to be. If I can remember where to look things up, when I can't remember the fact I am looking for, I am doing well. Thank God for google....
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Re: O. marina as a sole food for A. tonsa?

Postby "Umm, fish?" » Sun Jul 11, 2010 9:38 am

No, not at all. You are always so very helpful. :)
Andy

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Re: O. marina as a sole food for A. tonsa?

Postby Greshamh » Fri Jul 23, 2010 2:48 pm

I have an updated recipe but I left it on the other side of the facility so I'll post later
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Re: O. marina as a sole food for A. tonsa?

Postby "Umm, fish?" » Fri Jul 23, 2010 5:18 pm

Cool. Thanks, Gresh.
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Re: O. marina as a sole food for A. tonsa?

Postby JimWelsh » Tue Aug 03, 2010 12:54 am

Greshamh wrote:I have an updated recipe but I left it on the other side of the facility so I'll post later


Hey, Gresham -- did you ever find the recipe? I'd really like to see it!
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