Enrichment discussion

Enrichment discussion

Postby Suzy » Tue May 31, 2011 11:24 am

Hi, everyone!

After suffering major set back, I am thinking I still want to continue my passion. My tanks are now healthy, and I do have a few species being conditioned for spawning. Whilst I await any larvae, I am going to try to research a bit to find out the what, why, when and rationale behind the first food my larvae will need.

I do understand there are many knowledgeable people here, and maybe a few involved in the commercial aspects of this. If I am not mistaken, Reed Mariculture will be coming out with a line of products made for home hobbyist breeders? Anyone here familiar at all with them?

I also know that one of my favorite companies. Algagen is now producing a few great cultures available for retail sale. None of my many stores specializing in the marine hobby are carrying them now. Maybe with some encouragement from those of us in this area, we can change that.

I also totally understand that everyone here is probably really burned out by people asking the same questions over and over. I promise to search the site and post the findings here. In my perusing the site, I wonder if a thread locating them together would be an asset? If no one objects, I will try it here.

Anyone up for a long thread dealing with the various enrichment products available?
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Re: Enrichment discussion

Postby spawner » Wed Jun 01, 2011 9:52 am

Suzy,

There is so much advertising and so little data for the hobbyists on enrichment products.

A few things I think that are over looked,

1) Most enrichment are also perfect bacteria food (dead, lipid rich, warm water, etc..), thus you are feeding your larvae enormous amounts of Vibrio and other bacteria.
2) shelf life is very short for any wet product, weeks to months tops.
3) enrichment times are often only in the orders of a few hours not a day as many currently enrich for.
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Re: Enrichment discussion

Postby Luis A M » Wed Jun 01, 2011 3:38 pm

A very controversial subject,Suzy,and one that would bring endless discussions! :lol:
Enriching with emulsions is messy and risky,if not well done you can kill the bbs or rots in the process.
"Enriching"by feeding the live food with rich algae,alive or pastes,especially the new ones,like RotiGrow,is safer.
And the main question is;do we improve larval raising by enriching,at our hobby level? :?
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Re: Enrichment discussion

Postby Scottt » Wed Jun 01, 2011 5:59 pm

I don't know a whole lot, but I can share my experiences.
I used to grow nanno. It is really nice for the larval tanks I hear, less cleaning. It worked well. But if I didn't enrich the rotifers with something prior to feeding the larval fishes, they developed flared gills.

Right now I grow so many darn rotifers that I just don't have it in me to grow the algae, so I buy the Reed stuff. I grow my rotifers with 'roti-grow-nanno', and enrich them with 'N-Rich PL Plus', both Reed Mariculture products. One can grow the rotifers with 'roti-grow-plus', and skip the whole enrichment process. I stick with pure nanno for growing the rotifers, as it is the cleanest, and therefore the hardest to kill the cultures. When I enrich the rotifers, I do it for 2 hours, and then re-sieve them, so that I don't add the gunky-enrichment to the larval tank. Also, just as a side note, I use the roti-green for my larval tanks, it seems to work well (has small amounts of dha to help avoid flared gills).

So that's what I do, it works for me. Without enrichment, I get flaired gills. The N-Rich PL Plus lasts 4 months in the frige, the nanno pretty much indefinitely in the freezer.
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Re: Enrichment discussion

Postby Suzy » Thu Jun 02, 2011 9:04 am

spawner wrote:Suzy,

There is so much advertising and so little data for the hobbyists on enrichment products.

A few things I think that are over looked,

1) Most enrichment are also perfect bacteria food (dead, lipid rich, warm water, etc..), thus you are feeding your larvae enormous amounts of Vibrio and other bacteria.
2) shelf life is very short for any wet product, weeks to months tops.
3) enrichment times are often only in the orders of a few hours not a day as many currently enrich for.



You got that right! I can find pages that tell me to buy products but none tell me what they are or how to use them. That is a bit frustration. Maybe I will stumble on something. Or maybe one of them will read this and help me stumble on to something. hintcoughhint

1) I keep wondering about this. I work in human medicine, and I have to take immuno suppressant drugs so I am very aware of the bacteria in my work environment. Humans are exposed to a myriad of bacteria, some pathogenic, some symbiotic, some are just there living on our skin. But we aren't constantly sick. Our fish also are exposed, and the water the larvae are in would be too. So, do fish and larvae have immune systems? They have blood so they would have white bloods cells? But, I have heard it is not the single bacterium that causes disease in fish, it is when they are overwhelmed with millions. How far off base am I?

2) Is there any way to tell if the product is worthless besides the larvae all dying? I know that is probably wishful thinking, unless we have an expensive lab that can test these things. But does the product spoil like human food? or does it somehow lose its effectiveness?

3) Is this when I enrich rotifers or artemia?
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Re: Enrichment discussion

Postby Suzy » Thu Jun 02, 2011 9:08 am

Luis A M wrote:A very controversial subject,Suzy,and one that would bring endless discussions! :lol:
Enriching with emulsions is messy and risky,if not well done you can kill the bbs or rots in the process.
"Enriching"by feeding the live food with rich algae,alive or pastes,especially the new ones,like RotiGrow,is safer.
And the main question is;do we improve larval raising by enriching,at our hobby level? :?


Emulsions are the Selco type products, right?

I hope we improve survival! I keep thinking that is my downfall. I am not enriching right. But, maybe that is not the issue at all? I just do not have the right first foods?
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Re: Enrichment discussion

Postby Suzy » Thu Jun 02, 2011 9:37 am

Scottt wrote:I don't know a whole lot, but I can share my experiences.
I used to grow nanno. It is really nice for the larval tanks I hear, less cleaning. It worked well. But if I didn't enrich the rotifers with something prior to feeding the larval fishes, they developed flared gills.

Right now I grow so many darn rotifers that I just don't have it in me to grow the algae, so I buy the Reed stuff. I grow my rotifers with 'roti-grow-nanno', and enrich them with 'N-Rich PL Plus', both Reed Mariculture products. One can grow the rotifers with 'roti-grow-plus', and skip the whole enrichment process. I stick with pure nanno for growing the rotifers, as it is the cleanest, and therefore the hardest to kill the cultures. When I enrich the rotifers, I do it for 2 hours, and then re-sieve them, so that I don't add the gunky-enrichment to the larval tank. Also, just as a side note, I use the roti-green for my larval tanks, it seems to work well (has small amounts of dha to help avoid flared gills).

So that's what I do, it works for me. Without enrichment, I get flaired gills. The N-Rich PL Plus lasts 4 months in the frige, the nanno pretty much indefinitely in the freezer.


What a great post! Personal experience really helps!

I have found a way to grow microalgae without too much trouble, but I dont use it to enrich. More for keeping ammonia levels down? If there were a species that had both types of essential fatty acids, that would rock! So, using the commercial pastes seem to be the way to go. But, skipping one step of enriching is a bonus big time!

I found this link on Reeds stuff: The Rotifer Compendium!

http://rotifersolutions.com/?p=27

The Roti Green Nanno. It says it is nanno but has both EPA and DHA? And good bacteria?
http://rotifersolutions.com/?page_id=414

The Rotigrow Plus. It doesn't tell you what it is...Do you think if you looked at it under a microscope it would look like a mix of different alga cells?
http://rotifersolutions.com/?page_id=231

N-Rich PL Plus. So, you grow rotifers with Rotigrow PLus then add the N-rich PL plus?
http://rotifersolutions.com/?page_id=361
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Re: Enrichment discussion

Postby DanUnderwood » Mon Jun 06, 2011 10:08 pm

Suzy, your questions are well founded and do warrant repetition. As mention, they are highly controversial and there may be no single correct answer especially when you consider that there are many different species that are being worked on as well as many different methods.

Andy brings up a couple of great points regarding bacteria and types of enrichments. Some enrichments lend to higher counts of bacteria. Some of our live foods are prone to high counts. So much of this has to do with our protocols in how we perform our tasks with maintaining cultures, cross contamination issues, sterilization etc. This creates a great many variables in just handling and preparing our foods before we even consider our techniques in dealing with larval fish. I like to think of it as a very long math equation in which if any part of the equation is wrong, the end answer is wrong. You have to work it out so that it works for you.

As an example, in contrast to using live algaes, a study is currently underway at a local university, that Andy is familiar with, in which they are comparing an enrichment I came up with for seahorses compared to using algaes. In this study, our enrichment has 5 times the survival rate and close to the same improvement for growth rate compared to live algaes. On the surface, this would appear to make our enrichment far superior. However, if you analyze the study and compare it to different techniques, you can argue a completely different answer. In this study they are using a clear water technique and using the enrichment and algaes solely as enrichments. I suspect if the same experiment was done with a "greenwater technique" the results may vary as greenwater may have the potential to provide a complex mixtures of suspended and live soluble organic and mineral substances, stabilization and improvement of water quality, light contrast, micronutrient stimulus for feeding and behavior or physiological processes, regulation of opportunistic bacterial populations and improvements in rotifer pelagic quality. If you were to experiment with different algaes, combination of algaes or tried to compare to algae pastes, I would expect some variances in the results.

As far as fish having immune systems, yes they are endowed with both innate and acquired immune systems. However they appear to be some great difference between them and homoeothermic animals such as mammals or us and there is still a great deal to be learned about them. There is probably some big differences among different species and development stages as well. Working in the medical field you can probably relate to this, we try to protect babies and aging seniors from exposure to certain pathogens because their immune systems are not up to par. It appears to be the same with fish larvae. They can be highly susceptible to pathogens. Combine this with a static or recirculating systems in which we contaminate with bacteria in live feeds, the numbers of pathogenic bacteria can get out of hand quickly and it can present a formidable challenge.

I don't think there is a single correct answer. We work strictly with seahorses and primarily use a clear water technique. We use primarily rotifers and artemia without kriesels with great results. We also use probiotics, vitamins, and herbs which are having a positive impact. Our techniques may not work for other species and many that try to duplicate our results, fail. Sadly, it takes a lot of trial and error, work, time, expense to develop your own system that works for you. Learning what works from others and adapting to your protocols can help.

I wish there was an easy answer. For some species, there are proven techniques, for others, it is a challenge. The challenge is what makes it fun for some of us.

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Re: Enrichment discussion

Postby Suzy » Tue Jun 07, 2011 10:38 am

Thanks, Dan! I reallt appreciate your input.

DanUnderwood wrote:Andy brings up a couple of great points regarding bacteria and types of enrichments. Some enrichments lend to higher counts of bacteria. Some of our live foods are prone to high counts. So much of this has to do with our protocols in how we perform our tasks with maintaining cultures, cross contamination issues, sterilization etc. This creates a great many variables in just handling and preparing our foods before we even consider our techniques in dealing with larval fish. I like to think of it as a very long math equation in which if any part of the equation is wrong, the end answer is wrong. You have to work it out so that it works for you.


Can you expand on your protocols? Specifically, do you feel the bacteria is on the live food cells, or in the water? Do you rinse the live foods you use or try to prevent pathogens from surviving in the cultures themselves?

DanUnderwood wrote:As an example, in contrast to using live algaes, a study is currently underway at a local university, that Andy is familiar with, in which they are comparing an enrichment I came up with for seahorses compared to using algaes. In this study, our enrichment has 5 times the survival rate and close to the same improvement for growth rate compared to live algaes. On the surface, this would appear to make our enrichment far superior. However, if you analyze the study and compare it to different techniques, you can argue a completely different answer. In this study they are using a clear water technique and using the enrichment and algaes solely as enrichments. I suspect if the same experiment was done with a "greenwater technique" the results may vary as greenwater may have the potential to provide a complex mixtures of suspended and live soluble organic and mineral substances, stabilization and improvement of water quality, light contrast, micronutrient stimulus for feeding and behavior or physiological processes, regulation of opportunistic bacterial populations and improvements in rotifer pelagic quality. If you were to experiment with different algaes, combination of algaes or tried to compare to algae pastes, I would expect some variances in the results.


Do you have a link to this study? It sounds fascinating! The water itself is completely clear, and the larvae are fed only enriched live foods?

DanUnderwood wrote:As far as fish having immune systems, yes they are endowed with both innate and acquired immune systems. However they appear to be some great difference between them and homoeothermic animals such as mammals or us and there is still a great deal to be learned about them. There is probably some big differences among different species and development stages as well. Working in the medical field you can probably relate to this, we try to protect babies and aging seniors from exposure to certain pathogens because their immune systems are not up to par. It appears to be the same with fish larvae. They can be highly susceptible to pathogens. Combine this with a static or recirculating systems in which we contaminate with bacteria in live feeds, the numbers of pathogenic bacteria can get out of hand quickly and it can present a formidable challenge.


Yes. I wonder if I should consider larvae like a premature newborn! Newborns have little immune systems of their own, they use what they got from their mother up until about 6 months. I think. I work with old guys! In our NICU.the environment is very, very clean but could never be sterile like an OR. There is no way we can keep our home systems sterile but to aim for uber clean may be possible.

Do you ever prophylacticly treat them with antibiotics? Do you know of any vaccine type medications?

DanUnderwood wrote:I don't think there is a single correct answer. We work strictly with seahorses and primarily use a clear water technique. We use primarily rotifers and artemia without kriesels with great results. We also use probiotics, vitamins, and herbs which are having a positive impact. Our techniques may not work for other species and many that try to duplicate our results, fail. Sadly, it takes a lot of trial and error, work, time, expense to develop your own system that works for you. Learning what works from others and adapting to your protocols can help.


Your experience is incredibly invaluable. Seahorse are not the easiest of species to raise, it is not a small feat to have the success you do. Just keeping the adults alive is a challenge to most of us. I would love to be a fly on the wall of your fish room! Do you mind if I ask specific questions about your "Dans Feed"? I have some and have only used it a few times, because i really do not have an y larvae now.

I am going to write this up, and post it somewhere so having your input before I do is great! I dont want to mess it up!

So, to classify it, would it be considered a dry enrichment, used to feed the live food we feed to our larvae, right? Could it ever be used as a tiny food for certain species? The package states it is can be fed to artemia, so could it also be fed to peppermint shrimp larvae directly?

I love that the package states the ingredients. I know it is not just snake oil!

Thanks again! You are a syngnathid lovers hero!
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Re: Enrichment discussion

Postby Luis A M » Tue Jun 07, 2011 5:12 pm

The Rotigrow Plus. It doesn't tell you what it is...Do you think if you looked at it under a microscope it would look like a mix of different alga cells?

I had done it,Suzy.Rotigrow and Rotigreen show some few larger cells,like ISO,mixed with the NAN cells.Since the makers have found that these algae don´t resist long term frozen storage,like NAN,one wonders if that problem was solved :?
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Re: Enrichment discussion

Postby DanUnderwood » Tue Jun 07, 2011 10:23 pm

Can you expand on your protocols? Specifically, do you feel the bacteria is on the live food cells, or in the water? Do you rinse the live foods you use or try to prevent pathogens from surviving in the cultures themselves?

I am pretty anal about the protocols. Most folks won't go through the same steps but we have proven it makes a huge difference in the outcome. In the end, I am able to use rotifers and artemia without copepods and maintaining algae cultures which ends up less work, less space for cultures and less expense.
Artemia we start off with only high grade cysts in which we get the analysis on. These are decapsulated, same stuff we sell, and stored in a brine solution. We start with sterile hatching cones and add Hatch Control to the hatching vessel. Hatch Control, an Inve product, consists of fish oils and antioxidants which have proven to reduce bacterial counts during the hatch. Hatching is done under temperature controlled conditions and is typically Instar II or just at it when we take it down. It is then rinsed with FW and soaked in solution of water & peroxide at 8000 mg/L for 5 minutes. Then rinsed again and placed in the enrichment vessel. Enriching is done for 12 hours, taken down, rinsed and then enriched again for another 12 hours with probiotics added at the end. All the equipment, nets, vessels, airlines etc is cleaned between use with soap and water and then with a 12 % peroxide solution. If anything doesn't get as clean as we want it, then we use phosphoric acid.
Rotifers are done similar but they are much more delicate. We use Rotigrow and Algamac Protein Plus to grow them out. Vessels are restarted regularly and scrubbed down. Peroxide treatment is at 40mg/L for 15 minutes. Enriching is done for 4 hours primarily with Protein Plus. I am working on an enrichment for them.

Do you have a link to this study? It sounds fascinating! The water itself is completely clear, and the larvae are fed only enriched live foods?

No link as yet. Study is still ongoing. Besides I don't want to take the thunder away from the researcher who has put all the work in. I believe she is in Brazil currently presenting her preliminary findings and will be making a presentation in Chicago to the Syngnathid Conference. Yes, clear water with enriched live foods, rotifers and artemia.

Yes. I wonder if I should consider larvae like a premature newborn! Newborns have little immune systems of their own, they use what they got from their mother up until about 6 months. I think. I work with old guys! In our NICU.the environment is very, very clean but could never be sterile like an OR. There is no way we can keep our home systems sterile but to aim for uber clean may be possible.

Based on what I am reading and what i have experienced with seahorse fry, the immune system has to develop with larvae.
Even an OR isn't sterile. It is what they strive for, but still falls short. In many facilities and home systems especially, cross contamination can occur no matter how careful we are. Some things can end up being airborne. Most of use don't have the luxury of a special room for each culture.

Do you ever prophylacticly treat them with antibiotics?

No! Don't believe in using antibiotics unless there is a specific indication.

Do you know of any vaccine type medications?

I haven't found one that I am willing to use. I am finding that probiotics go a long way in helping. Definitely doesn't replace husbandry but acts as an adjunct to help.

I would love to be a fly on the wall of your fish room!

We do allow visitors when done by appointment and it doesn't conflict with our schedule or duties.

Do you mind if I ask specific questions about your "Dans Feed"?

Feel free! I will answer what I can.

So, to classify it, would it be considered a dry enrichment, used to feed the live food we feed to our larvae, right? Could it ever be used as a tiny food for certain species? The package states it is can be fed to artemia, so could it also be fed to peppermint shrimp larvae directly?

Yes, an enrichment for live foods. Not a feed for maintaining cultures. I don't know about using it as a direct feed for certain species. It has been used on a peppermint shrimp farm but I believe they found that using their own concoction they came up with worked better. This was designed for enriching artemia for seahorse fry. It is the result of several years of experimenting to come up with what works best for them in the systems and methods we use. The idea was that there wasn't any one enrichment that was perfect for us and by blending several things together at the right mixture, the whole was greater than the sum of the parts, at least for us. I know that some breeders of different fish swear by it, but I don't have any experience with other species to go on. Since the purpose of the product is for internal use, I have never tried to really market it or tailor it in any way for other species.

I love that the package states the ingredients.

All products should. There shouldn't be anything to hide. It isn't the just the ingredients, but the quality of the ingredients and the right amount of each.

I have found this part of breeding a lot of fun and a big challenge. I probably wouldn't be doing if it if it wasn't. Figuring out how to overcome the challenges is what keeps me interested. Also, the more I learn, the more I realize how little I really know!!!!

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Re: Enrichment discussion

Postby Suzy » Wed Jun 08, 2011 7:24 am

Wow! That is anal! I would think the artemia would die through all that! That is very impressive, very helpful and something I will strive for.

So, we use the Dans Feed to enrich artemia. Have you ever used it to enrich rotifers?

Would it be acceptable to mix some Dans feed according to the directions on the package, and keep it in the fridge for an extended time? Bacteria can grow quickly in a moist Selco high fat solution, I would think, but would it be safe with Dans Feed? Refrigerated, I would think it would be like us keeping mayonnaise in the fridge?!

Thank you so much for the wonderful information!
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Re: Enrichment discussion

Postby Suzy » Wed Jun 08, 2011 7:29 am

Luis A M wrote:
The Rotigrow Plus. It doesn't tell you what it is...Do you think if you looked at it under a microscope it would look like a mix of different alga cells?

I had done it,Suzy.Rotigrow and Rotigreen show some few larger cells,like ISO,mixed with the NAN cells.Since the makers have found that these algae don´t resist long term frozen storage,like NAN,one wonders if that problem was solved :?


I missed this! You have looked at it under a microscope! Did the cells look viable and alive?

I have always wondered, with these types of products, if the cells were alive, couldn't you put them in a culture and get them to grow? Of course, with the mix of more than one, you wouldn't get to pick which one grows, but does the freezing process kill them?
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Re: Enrichment discussion

Postby DanUnderwood » Wed Jun 08, 2011 9:19 am

So, we use the Dans Feed to enrich artemia. Have you ever used it to enrich rotifers?

Yes. In fact that is what the researcher did. I do believe however that it needs to be reformulated for the rotifers which I am slowly working on.

Would it be acceptable to mix some Dans feed according to the directions on the package, and keep it in the fridge for an extended time? Bacteria can grow quickly in a moist Selco high fat solution, I would think, but would it be safe with Dans Feed? Refrigerated, I would think it would be like us keeping mayonnaise in the fridge?!

We do. I make up 3 liters at time, enough for 4 to 5 days. Many customers do the same in smaller portions. I don't recommend making up more than a weeks worth though.
If you mix up a ratio of 3 teaspoons to 240 ml RO water (or just round it out to 250) you can then add 10 ml/Liter which will roughly equal 0.2 grams/Liter. In small amounts like this a stick or hand blender works best.
Keeping it refrigerated minimizes the bacterial growth. The bigger risk is with the fatty acids breaking down and for it going rancid. Not a big deal with a weeks worth, but long term, that would happen just like the selco's.

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Re: Enrichment discussion

Postby Suzy » Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:23 pm

Great! I notice in my life if I can do things ahead on the days I work, and plan to do less those day, life is much easier!

I have a wonderful tupperware shaker for slimfast. I bet that would work great!

Thank you so much for all the wonderful info!
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Re: Enrichment discussion

Postby Luis A M » Wed Jun 08, 2011 2:32 pm

Suzy wrote:
Luis A M wrote:
The Rotigrow Plus. It doesn't tell you what it is...Do you think if you looked at it under a microscope it would look like a mix of different alga cells?

I had done it,Suzy.Rotigrow and Rotigreen show some few larger cells,like ISO,mixed with the NAN cells.Since the makers have found that these algae don´t resist long term frozen storage,like NAN,one wonders if that problem was solved :?


I missed this! You have looked at it under a microscope! Did the cells look viable and alive?

I have always wondered, with these types of products, if the cells were alive, couldn't you put them in a culture and get them to grow? Of course, with the mix of more than one, you wouldn't get to pick which one grows, but does the freezing process kill them?

No,the cells aren´t (nor look like :mrgreen: )alive (or viable,if you prefer :wink: )
For this reason,you can´t start a culture with them.Though some wrong info was posted here before.
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Re: Enrichment discussion

Postby Suzy » Wed Jun 08, 2011 5:54 pm

What wrong information?
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Re: Enrichment discussion

Postby Luis A M » Wed Jun 08, 2011 10:16 pm

Suzy wrote:What wrong information?

That cultures could be started out of frozen algae.But I prefer not to take this subject further,you can search old threads. :wink:
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Re: Enrichment discussion

Postby Suzy » Sun Jun 12, 2011 7:11 am

I have never been able to start them from frozen cells. Communication break down? I did not mean to say that....
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Re: Enrichment discussion

Postby Suzy » Sun Jun 12, 2011 7:16 am

Does anyone have experience with Otohime?
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Re: Enrichment discussion

Postby Luis A M » Sun Jun 12, 2011 12:00 pm

Does anyone have experience with Otohime?

Oto as an enrichment?.Or we are changing the topic? :?
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Re: Enrichment discussion

Postby Suzy » Sun Jun 12, 2011 4:35 pm

As an enrichment. I got a sample and it seems very fine, like Dans Feed. Can I use it to enrich artemia like with Dans Feed or it is just as a first time food for larvae?
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Re: Enrichment discussion

Postby Luis A M » Mon Jun 13, 2011 4:18 pm

Oh,I see now.Rather than providing some special missing nutrient or medication,you are willing to feed them with a general well balanced fish food.
Only that I don´t know if Artemia could ingest Oto particles.I think the maximum size they could take is 50 mics?.
No worries,easy to tell.Check them against a light background for a full gut :wink:
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Re: Enrichment discussion

Postby EasterEggs » Wed Aug 24, 2011 2:32 pm

Thanks for this thread Suzy, and to everyone who has contributed! I'm trying to decide what products to order from Reed today, and this thread has helped tremendously! I am going to (try to) copy what Scottt is doing...that's the most info I've been able to come across so far, so that's where I will start. Thanks for posting details Scottt.

What is the difference between RotiGrow Nanno and RotiGreen Nanno? I understand that a person uses the RotiGrow in the rotifer cultures, and the RotiGreen in the larval tanks, but what exactly is the difference?

How about Instant Algae Nanno? I'm not understanding the differences.
Given sufficient thrust, pigs will fly just fine.
EasterEggs
 
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Re: Enrichment discussion

Postby EasterEggs » Sat Aug 27, 2011 11:48 am

Anyone care to define the differences between the RotiGreen Nanno, RotiGrow Nanno, and Instant Algae Nanno?
Given sufficient thrust, pigs will fly just fine.
EasterEggs
 
Posts: 544
Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2011 1:33 pm
Location: Canada

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