Raising with calanoid nauplii

Raising with calanoid nauplii

Postby Luis A M » Thu Nov 08, 2007 1:58 pm

Well,I started a run feeding only copepod nauplii,a mix of my three species.I chose C.taupou as damsels are notoriously difficult to raise on rotifers.
Things started bad.I had a live algae shortage and couldn´t produce enough naups for my ten g larval tank.And I also contaminated the tank with some bbs that started to grow there.Naups could not be found in larval tanks samples.
I was tempted to quit and feed rots to give the larvae a chance but I decided to keep adding all available naups instead.Larvae looked weak and numbers were dwindling :(
But now,in the 6th day,algae are proliferating and I stopped adding phyto which became too dense.Copepods can be seen in the water column,and I found a half grown P.pelagicus in a 2ml sample.And some larvae (can´t see how many)look active and growing.
While these are still early observations,I can see that:
As expected,larvae survive and grow on a naup diet.
Unlike rots,naups don´t overpopulate the tank nor clear up the algae which doesn´t need to be replaced so frequently.This is good,as a rots ten g tank consumes one-two L of live phyto/day. 8)
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Postby KathyL » Thu Nov 08, 2007 2:20 pm

Very cool! Luis, you are the master.
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Postby mpedersen » Thu Nov 08, 2007 2:29 pm

So if I'm reading this right, you're really just doing a co-culture, i.e. greenwater technique with calanoid copepods, correct?

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Re:

Postby Luis A M » Thu Nov 08, 2007 2:47 pm

mpedersen wrote:So if I'm reading this right, you're really just doing a co-culture, i.e. greenwater technique with calanoid copepods, correct?

Matt

Hmmm..let see...when I put rots in greenwater,they reproduce right away,i.e in a co-culture (culturing larvae and rots together)
But here I am adding naups everyday which won´t reproduce until they´re adults in 7-9 days.Then it will be a co-culture.
But since pods are growing in here,yes, it could also be called a co-culture :?
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Re:

Postby Luis A M » Thu Nov 08, 2007 4:42 pm

KathyL wrote:Very cool! Luis, you are the master.

C´mon,Kathy! :oops:
But wait for results.The road to Hell is paved with good intentions. :twisted:
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Postby mrblue » Thu Nov 08, 2007 8:22 pm

Very interesting, good luck Luis :D .

But wait for results.The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.


I hear that.

I've never worked with naups (well not that I could see) but when ever I add copepods feeding response was brilliant but not always successful. It's seems catching pods is quite a challenge and I usually see more attempted strikes then successful ones when first introducing it. Are naups as jumpy as the parents Would adding a few rots at least initially give them a better chance of learning to hunt the naups. I guess finding out if they, alone, are a suitable first food is well worth knowing.
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Postby Luis A M » Fri Nov 09, 2007 12:50 am

Several interesting points here :)
Both adult and naups have escape reactions different for each species.They wouldn´t have survived if they didn´t :wink:
But fish larvae manage to catch them,the % being caught depending of many factors including age of the larva and copepod species.This is an important aspect of larval raising and was discussed by Witt here.
The fact is that pods,adult and naups are harder to catch than bbs and much harder than rots.
But considering size,naups could be a first food and rots a second.
Yes,it is said that mixing some copepods in a rotifer diet,even a small % or during a short time enhances larval growth and survival.
But if I put some rots in a closed greenwater larval system,in a very short time I will have just a green water-rot system which would be fine for clowns or neon gobies but not for damsels and besides it is not what I want to check,which is raising on copepods.I imagine adult copepods will also replace bbs when the larvae grow up.
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Re:

Postby mpedersen » Fri Nov 09, 2007 2:39 am

Luis A M wrote:I imagine adult copepods will also replace bbs when the larvae grow up.
Most certainly could. On Batch XXIV of my Onyx percs, I had such dismal survival early on that I just gave up on the babies. Around day 6 just threw in about a gallon's worth of Tiggerpods (Tigriops) and by day 15 I had the best looking 15 day old clownfish I've ever seen. There's just something to be said about copepods as an ideal food!
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Postby chris melb » Sat Nov 10, 2007 6:02 am

From my research and as i understand it, wild larval gut contents of tropical shorefish indicate that they do feed on Copepod copepodites, and copepod Naupli (Sampey et al, 2007). So providing copepods in our cultures we are getting closer to replicating what happens in the wild. Having evolved from rots to pods may also have a downside though, as in the wild its estimated that only a very small percentage of shorefish larvae survive one of the reasons could be just what we are talking about: larvaes ability to prey on copepods. Mind you copepods are considered far more nutritious/suitable than even enriched rots, larvae may only need half as many successful copepod capture to be equivalent to rots in terms of nutrition.

One of the problems i have seen is that it is dificult to get a highly dense culture of calanoids. But i think we are taking a huge leap forward in aquaculture with the culture of these calanoids.
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Postby Luis A M » Sat Nov 10, 2007 1:08 pm

All this is very true.And natural densities of prey organisms,though variable,seldom reach the figures of 10-50/ml we provide with rots.
But probably the natural low survival rate of fish larvae (1% for demersal spawners and 1/million for large pelagic spawners) is more related to larvae being preyed themselves in the plankton food chain.
Right, I find problems in obtaining enough naups of A.tonsa.And it seems to require larger volumes of algae than I manage to culture.I was designing a promising mass culture system based on bottom screened containers and daily (egg rather than naup) collection.But this work was stopped when I got the two new species that are much more productive.
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Postby chris melb » Sat Nov 10, 2007 8:11 pm

Luis with your calanoid cultures what stocking densities are you able to achieve on T.iso (if using only T.iso)?

A.tonsa is considered a large copepods isnt it? Articles i have read show that larave consume the small calanoid species.

I agree that alot of larvae would end up being eaten, the other thing i did read somewhere was that copepods capture might be enhanced in the wild with water flow.

If i look at my copepods they have brief bursts of movement, and then rest. They can move very quick, much quicker than larvae, i have a feeling the only time larvae consume these is when there in resting phase just after they have had their little sprint.
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Postby Luis A M » Sat Nov 10, 2007 9:50 pm

Didn´t measure how many,but I get pretty high densities with T-ISO at 33 ml/L.
A.tonsa is rather small,as calanoids go,but it is medium size compared to the larger P.pelagicus or the smaller paracalanid.
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Re:

Postby mrblue » Sun Nov 11, 2007 12:36 am

Bit slow on the reply here, sorry.

Luis A M wrote:Several interesting points here :)
Both adult and naups have escape reactions different for each species.They wouldn´t have survived if they didn´t :wink:
But fish larvae manage to catch them,the % being caught depending of many factors including age of the larva and copepod species.This is an important aspect of larval raising and was discussed by Witt here.
The fact is that pods,adult and naups are harder to catch than bbs and much harder than rots.


The reason I originally asked was that I have tried to raise clownfish purely off wild copepods, thinking I would have great results and ended up having awful survival rate, around 10-20%. Some copepods are defensively brilliant. I have seem them dodgy and weaving clown attacks like they had a six sense. You can frequently observe a clown (or dottyback) lining up laboriously for a strike on an unmoving pod and just as they strike the pod skips away. Often the second or third strike at the same pod is performed with increasing desperation with the clown striking quicker at every attempt with the pod skipping away at just the right time. Probably a good way to expel energy with little nutritional gain.

But if I put some rots in a closed greenwater larval system,in a very short time I will have just a green water-rot system which would be fine for clowns or neon gobies but not for damsels and besides it is not what I want to check,which is raising on copepods.


Yeh, I know, not sure how you could get past this, may be work out how to sterilize rots LOL :lol: ?

I agree that alot of larvae would end up being eaten, the other thing i did read somewhere was that copepods capture might be enhanced in the wild with water flow.


In my unscientific opinion (as always) I think there is definitely something to this. With pods and otohime I have observed that if I siphon water off the surface and pull the food items along the surface I see a remarkable amount of strikes, successful ones to. Adjusting the flow, repositioning air-lines and lights all seem to have an impact on how successful they are at striking at these more difficult food items.

BTW, how are the damsels going Luis?
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Re:

Postby Luis A M » Mon Nov 12, 2007 1:50 am

mrblue wrote:
BTW, how are the damsels going Luis?


They are fine,today they are ten days old.They have full bellies,are growing and swim actively.Only that I can´t see how many are there,phyto is too dense.I guess they´re few of them,most must have died during the famine of the first days.
Now copepod nauplii are present in the water column at a concentration of 2/ml.Adult copepds can´t be seen but should be there after ten days and should start to reproduce.I can see many half grown Artemia which don´t do any harm other than consuming phyto.
I keep adding naups every night.And a little T-ISO.
The tank was kept closed up to today when I started a slow drip of system water.NH3 keeps at zero and pH is 8.54,both probably caused by algal activity.
So I´m in fact co-culturing fish,three species of copepods,bs and algae! :lol:
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Postby mrblue » Mon Nov 12, 2007 11:44 pm

Sounds good. Are you noticing more obvious growth then your previous batches? Do you plan to try and feed them entirely on calanoids through to meta?
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Re:

Postby Luis A M » Tue Nov 13, 2007 1:23 am

mrblue wrote:Sounds good. Are you noticing more obvious growth then your previous batches? Do you plan to try and feed them entirely on calanoids through to meta?

I could see about ten larvae,no obvious difference with previous runs.Yes,I plan to keep them exclusively on copepods.When they´ll get larger,there will be many adult copepods for them to feed on.
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Postby Luis A M » Wed Nov 14, 2007 6:41 pm

13 days old.They are growing,and look very active and with a darker pigmentation.And full bellies :)
While the copepod diet is the obvious difference with previous runs,the very dense algal population must also be considered.Because there are no rots to clear it,algae remain and even increase in the larval water,under just a laid across fluo lamp x 14 hrs(about 8W).A small group of contaminating Artemia grew to adult feeding on them without making a dent in algal concentration.
As for the algal species I´m confused.Originally it was T-ISO but it grows dark green rather than brown,so I suspected a contamination.A micro check shows two species which could be T-ISO and NAN,or perhaps some feral contamination. :?
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Postby mrblue » Wed Nov 14, 2007 9:45 pm

Sounds interesting. I also wouldn't discount the extra phyto making a difference, I personally don't think I would ever have got a Mcc or a dottyback through meta if I hadn't used live phyto and lots of it.
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Postby Luis A M » Fri Nov 16, 2007 2:42 pm

15 days-This run will now be called Run 1 :)
It keeps OK,good numbers of naups and copepodites.I keep removing adult bs.I keep giving naups every night and 500 ml of T-ISO.
Started fast system dripping today.

Began Run 2.It will be only given paracalanid naups and T-ISO.I put a batch of G.okinawae,which are VERY small larvae. :?
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Postby KMB » Sat Nov 17, 2007 1:12 pm

Hey Luis, This is getting exciting!

I'm anxious to see if your larvae will continue to do well if you stay with adult copepods and do not add Artemia. We always have to start Artemia around day 15 because the larvae seem to have limited success catching the adult copepods. Of course these are a different species of copepod and larvae. With our calanoids the jump of the adult is huge as compared to the movements of the naups.

Looking forward to hearing more :D

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Postby Luis A M » Sat Nov 17, 2007 3:16 pm

Hey Karen,I really could start with bbs or OTO by now.But I´d prefer to be ortodox with the only pods protocol.There is some evidence that sudden death at meta damsels show could be related to a bs diet and avoided by feeding pods.Just a nice theory but worth to try 8)
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Postby Luis A M » Sun Nov 18, 2007 4:43 pm

Run 1-17 days.
Water cleared and there were only THREE freaking larvae! :(
But they are three large,nice and lively larvae! :wink: Very dark,look like pre-meta.
Now the tank is full of naups (4/ml).I am now giving 1L of T-ISO /day which is cleared soon.

Run 2-3 days.
Doing fine,but naups can´t be found in water samples.

I had a huge batch of C.taupou hatched last night at 1.010 SG,intended to be dumped in an outside vat.But I put some few both in runs 1 and 2,to give them a chance.They survived perfectly the jump from 1.010 to 1.021 :shock:
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Re:

Postby aomont » Sun Nov 18, 2007 4:55 pm

Luis A M wrote:Run 1-17 days.
Now the tank is full of naups (4/ml).I am now giving 1L of T-ISO /day which is cleared soon.


Is this the highest nauplii density so far ?
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Re:

Postby Luis A M » Sun Nov 18, 2007 7:11 pm

aomont wrote:
Is this the highest nauplii density so far ?
Anderson.


Yes,and the tank seems full of them! 8)
It is said that 1/ml is a good density for naups.
For some reason,very few adults can be seen :?
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Postby aomont » Sun Nov 18, 2007 8:24 pm

Has ammonia changed since the beginning ?
I´m looking forward to what will happen to the new batch on Run 1 tank !
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