Can it be done?

Can it be done?

Postby rsisvixen » Tue Aug 25, 2015 5:32 pm

Being on the west coast of Canada finding live copepod cultures is not easy and would likely involve shipping from the states or out east.
I noted at the LFS they have Doctor Eco Systems Eco Matter
which contains :
"L" Shaped Rotifers, Moina Salina, Nanno Phytoplankton, Copepods: Tigriopus, Tisbe, Parvocalanus, Pseudodiaptomus, Acartia

Would it be possible to isolate each species and culture them?
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Re: Can it be done?

Postby Luis A M » Thu Aug 27, 2015 3:26 pm

It could be possible,but very difficult :?
All these species surviving together in a closed bottle in the shelf?.Amazing.You sure they´re alive?
Got a link for the product?.
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Re: Can it be done?

Postby rsisvixen » Thu Aug 27, 2015 4:51 pm

Well they say they are alive, not bought any yet but its kept in the fridge section of my LFS by the tiggerpods.

http://docseco.com/product/docs-eco-matter/
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Re: Can it be done?

Postby clayton447 » Fri Aug 28, 2015 11:38 am

I would be very curious to see if the Parvocalanus can survive in such a plankton soup and then sit on a shelf. I am a bit perplexed that they say to "Add the entire pouch after dark so the copepods and rotifers have time to hide, enabling them to continue their life cycle." I am going to pick this apart, because there are some things here that don't make sense. Rotifers are not the kind of animal that "hides" and the same goes for the Parvocalanus. The rotifers are also called L-Type rotifers, not "L" shaped.

I agree with Luis that it would be remarkable to see if they are all surviving together. The package also says that "these critters will populate, grow, reproduce and nourish your ecosystem." I know from experience that Parvocalanus, rotifers and maybe a few of these other copepods will never populate the tank; it's just not possible to keep Parvocalanus reproducing and maintaining a population in a reef tank when there are predators eating them, filtration removing them and they aren't being fed live algae (not Nanno) Does anyone agree? I just want to keep this industry honest because what they say on the packaging is incredibly misleading; it's actually a little depressing.

I would say that you would be hard pressed to pick out each individual species and culture them separately.
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Re: Can it be done?

Postby Luis A M » Fri Aug 28, 2015 12:20 pm

I fully agree with Chad and endorse his comments which I had also noticed.
But if you still want to try you will need a dissecting microscope.Buy a bottle of the product,shake well and pour some of it in a dish for direct observation.If nothing living shows,you can still culture it in some good quality phyto and check after some time.Some of the claimed species produce resistent eggs that could hatch when conditions would improve (Acartia,rots,Moina).
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Re: Can it be done?

Postby rsisvixen » Fri Aug 28, 2015 1:00 pm

They are not the only company doing this.
A new zooplankton place in Canada is selling a similar product.

http://copepods.ca/order-zooplankton/ca ... ton-blend/

Triggerpods cost around the same at the lfs, I might be better off buying those and culturing them. But it might be interesting to see what happens if I buy the other stuff and keep it in a dense phyto soup for awhile, will any of the species listed at the others?
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Re: Can it be done?

Postby Luis A M » Fri Aug 28, 2015 1:43 pm

Since the bottles are clear,you can hold them against a dark background and check for moving critters.
And if you have a scope available,you can try and isolate different species. :wink:
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Re: Can it be done?

Postby clayton447 » Fri Aug 28, 2015 1:57 pm

I would recommend you purchase single species cultures for starting a culture of your own. Keep in mind that Tigger-Pods tend to do really well in a dirty system, as long as they are fed phytoplankton and the water is lightly aerated. Tigger-Pod cultures can be a little perplexing due to the inconsistencies in reproduction. Always keep more than one culture going. Also, the sludge that builds up in the culture is really good stuff, filled with bacteria. The nauplii like to mill around in the sludge, so make sure you filter the sludge when moving the animals to a new vessel. You also want to retain some of the sludge for the new cultures so that you have a good bacterial population in the inoculum.

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Re: Can it be done?

Postby rsisvixen » Fri Aug 28, 2015 2:44 pm

I'll mail them for more information as well, see what they have to say about their claims.
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Re: Can it be done?

Postby rsisvixen » Fri Aug 28, 2015 4:35 pm

Well here is their response: I like how at he end I'm told to buy their phyto live product to feed their pods but nowhere in the info of their pod packaging is there any mention on feeding the pods.

From Dr Eco systems, maker of the eco matter product:

If you receive your product and the Copepods arrive dead, you can email us. We haven't had any issue with it. There are going to be some dead Copepods, because we include every life stage of each kind. So some will perish, just from old age.

> Quote :Add the entire pouch after dark so the copepods and rotifers have time to hide
> Some of these species do not hide but are free swimming, such as the rotifers and Parvocalanus.

Yes, there are pelagic and benthic pods in our product. But even free swimming pods will and can hide. Placing them in at dark when fish are less likely to be awake and hunting allows the pods a greater chance to distribute before being picked off. Thus increases chance of breeding by adding at night.
>
> Quote :these critters will populate, grow, reproduce and nourish your ecosystem
> Is this even possible? What about filtration,predation,protein skimming and the fact that they aren't being fed?
> Most of these require other types of algae not nano.

Yes. This is possible. We chose bugs this small because they have a much greater chance of reproducing and surviving filtration. Yes, they're harder to see for us, but they have many more benefits. Larger bugs, like tigrio, are more for just food and treats. They are almost always too large to make it by mechanical filtration and they generally breed to slow to handle being eating and filtered out. The smaller bugs and their nauplii (babies) fit better and reproduce quicker to repopulate any removed by skimmer and predation.

Yes. They need food, phytoplankton. They consume detritus but they need 100% live mixed phyto. Here are the reasons. There is a Iot of science that proves that if Copepods only get feed concentrated or dead phyto, one type of phyto (for instance, just nano, which is the most common sold phyto on market), that the Copepods will not get the proper nutritional needs that they need to long term reproduce healthy nauplii. Only feeding one kind is like feeding a salad everyday to a human. It only covers one nutritional need, not all. Feeding dead or concentrate isn't good either since it lacks nutritional value to the pods as well as they are less likely to consume it.

That is why we have our eco bytes. Which is multiple species of 100% live phytoplankton. Covers every nutritional need they want and coral want. Plus, it's 100% live, so it will help remove phosphates and nitrates, also turns carbon into oxygen.
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Re: Can it be done?

Postby dcartier » Fri Aug 28, 2015 7:45 pm

I also find their claims somewhat hard to believe. Just this past weekend when I asked for Rotifers at a LFS, and they offered the Doc's Eco Matter since it 'contained' rotifers. I didn't buy it. No way that rotifers would be alive after sitting in a bottle at the LFS for weeks. They would have long starved, so perhaps there are resting eggs. I even bought a bottle in the past, back when I was just looking for Pods for my fuge and was a bit dismayed when I looked up the actual contents online and realized that everything that had a chance of re-producing in my fuge, I already had in my fuge. There are definitely live pods in the bottle,though. At least there were plenty of harps and calanoids in the bottle I purchased.

I also tried their Eco bites. I bought a bottle last week intending to try and culture it. I tried this with Phycopure Greenwater (Nanno), and it went like gangbusters. The Eco bites on the other hand did nothing. I prepared it the same way as my Nanno, same light, same SG, same amount of F/2, and it just sat there for a week not getting any denser. I eventually gave up and dumped it.

I would be more inclined to try the mixture from copepods.ca, but they are local to me so I can drive there and pick up a fresh packed bottle. Same thing applies though, I already have the easy to culture pods that are included and the calanoids are not likely to take hold in my fuge, so I am less interested.

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Re: Can it be done?

Postby clayton447 » Tue Sep 08, 2015 1:59 pm

It's very interesting that they say that "Feeding dead or concentrate isn't good either since it lacks nutritional value to the pods as well as they are less likely to consume it." I have been able to culture Tigriopus californicus and Apocyclops panamensis with non-viable, concentrated Instant Algae. They need to be careful that they be very specific when saying certain things. I do absolutely agree with them that there are certain copepods like Parvocalanus crassirostris that don't do well on non-viable concentrates, but it's not because of lack of nutrition; it's because they have very sensitive feeding mechanisms that help them to detect exudates from live algal cells. There is probably a way to fool them into eating non-viable algae: amino acids may hold the key. I would love to see the "science that proves that if Copepods only get feed concentrated or dead phyto, one type of phyto (for instance, just nano, which is the most common sold phyto on market), that the Copepods will not get the proper nutritional needs that they need to long term reproduce healthy nauplii." Like I said, I have fed copepods non-viable algae concentrates and they have done just fine. I do agree that Nannochloropsis sp. is a poor choice for some copepods, but not all copepods are created equally and some do indeed eat Nannochloropsis and other green alga, and they do just fine.

One other thing about what they say, quote - "But even free swimming pods will and can hide. Placing them in at dark when fish are less likely to be awake and hunting allows the pods a greater chance to distribute before being picked off. Thus increases chance of breeding by adding at night." Parvocalanus crassirostris copepods will not hide. They don't live in a place in nature where there are hiding places. They do vertically migrate in the water column to escape predation, but there aren't a whole lot of hiding places in the open ocean.

I crave accuracy in this business because I believe that the hobbyists deserve to hear the truth and the facts about the science and biology behind the products on the market. Misinformation will cause problems. I always say that if you don't know the answer; then say so. I applaud Doc's Eco Systems for getting copepods out into the world, I just want to see some accurate information from them.
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Re: Can it be done?

Postby rsisvixen » Wed Sep 09, 2015 3:34 pm

Unfortunately in this day and age, accuracy goes out the window in favour of profit, at the end of the day being purposefully vague probably sells more for them.

What I would love to see being sold here in Canada is the Algagen line as at least its by species so you can get what you need, but I guess the red tape is a pain to sort through.
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Re: Can it be done?

Postby KathyL » Thu Sep 10, 2015 12:16 am

Hi rsisvixen,
Did you copy/paste his answers directly into the above posts? No transcription errors? The number of mistakes, grammatical and scientific, makes me wonder.
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Re: Can it be done?

Postby rsisvixen » Thu Sep 10, 2015 12:39 pm

I pasted her response directly,it was the lead biologist of the product.

I will give them their due in the fact that they replied to me almost immediately, but at the same time makes you wonder how much studying they did before throwing stuff in a bottle and selling it.
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Re: Can it be done?

Postby KathyL » Fri Sep 11, 2015 12:35 am

mistake. delete.
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Re: Can it be done?

Postby clayton447 » Fri Sep 11, 2015 1:22 pm

Hi rsisvixen,

This was a great thread and real eye opener. Thanks so much for contacting them and getting their side of things. It's great that they provided their perspective. I now know a lot more than I did about their products and how they handle customer questions. Knowledge is good. :)
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Re: Can it be done?

Postby KathyL » Sat Sep 12, 2015 12:25 am

Thanks to you, too, Chad, for providing reliable information. It is good to know that there are people/companies out there like you and Reed Mariculture, who are willing not only to understand the biology of the critters they sell, but work to find solutions to real problems, and help to educate the buying public with actual facts. Bravo! I frequently recommend Reed Mariculture's products and send people to their website for truly good information about rotifers, copepods, phytoplankton and fish food. Simply the best.
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Re: Can it be done?

Postby KathyL » Sun Sep 13, 2015 1:24 am

Also, I really don't mean to be unkind to the lead biologist who was nice enough to pen the response to our friends' query, I am sure she meant well, but I just can't let this stand. Our education system is hard pressed enough, and science is confusing to some, but really, if anyone has any doubt, I am here to say as person who has earned a B.A. degree in chemistry from Oberlin College, and has worked in biology research labs in industry and academia for longer than most of you have been alive, that there is no phytoplankton on the face of the earth that can turn carbon into oxygen. Forgive me, I just had to get that out.
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Re: Can it be done?

Postby rsisvixen » Sun Sep 13, 2015 11:53 am

Good point.
But then again no element can be turned into another, only bonds between elements, or their electrons can be manipulated.
I'm sure they meant to say carbon dioxide ( although that would only work if light was available ) and didn't realize they had made a mistake, although if I was answering someones questions about the Science behind something I would try to check it twice before sending an email. Fwiw.
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Re: Can it be done?

Postby clayton447 » Mon Sep 14, 2015 5:49 pm

Thanks for saying that Kathy. What do you guys think about this argument that live microalgae will remove phosphates and nitrates in your reef tank. I don't think that live phyto has any chance to remove substantial amounts of phosphate and nitrogen based molecules. They actually need more nutrient than that, and if something is limiting, they won't do well at all. The residence time of a single cell of algae in a tank is so short that there isn't a possibility of it absorbing enough phosphate or nitrogen based molecules from the tank. I have heard this used as a selling point by a number of companies that sell live phytoplankton. The other topic that I would like some discussion on is: when you add live phyto to your tank, you are also adding all of the nutrient that the live phyto was grown in. This, in turn, raises your phosphates and nitrogen based compounds in your tank, which is what you want to avoid. This is a topic that I am very interested in, but I don't have any concrete evidence to support it. Discuss!
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Re: Can it be done?

Postby rsisvixen » Mon Sep 14, 2015 6:54 pm

I very much doubt the addition of phyto will impact the levels of nitrate or phosphate in a system, with the high volume water turnover in most tanks and protein skimmers not to mention other algae that might be in the system utilizing whats available their chances to survive and make an impact are probably low to none.
Only way for this to be true would be to make the phyto super dense and then you have a green tank to look at, not highly likely in most people tanks.

I guess you would have to look at dilution into a tank, if you are using a whole bottle(premise of using eco bytes) in a 100 gallon system thats established I don't think any of the additives would make a significant impact. Only way to be sure is to test your tank before and after and see if there is a spike.
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Re: Can it be done?

Postby Luis A M » Tue Sep 15, 2015 3:13 pm

With one possible exception,you will never find calanoids or cyclopoids living in your tank or refugium.Only harpacticoids.
And under certain circumstances,live phyto can lower NH3 beyond common kits detection level.Like in closed greenwater larval systems.Not certainly in normal tanks.
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Re: Can it be done?

Postby Podman » Sat Sep 19, 2015 2:19 pm

Luis A M wrote:It could be possible,but very difficult :?
All these species surviving together in a closed bottle in the shelf?.Amazing.You sure they´re alive?
Got a link for the product?.

I, am a "breeder" and supplier of ultra high quality Copepoda. I have found the way to keep them in my bio bags, alive, for weeks.

Note from the mods team:
Your post was partly edited because of it´s commercial content.Commercial posts belong to our Marketplace Forum
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Re: Can it be done?

Postby clayton447 » Tue Sep 22, 2015 5:01 pm

I agree. It's possible that the live algae is stripping phosphates and nitrates out of a larval rearing tank if it is dense enough and has a long residence time, but the change would be very hard to detect. I believe that there is no way to remove significant amounts of phosphate and nitrate, nitrite or ammonia from a reef tank. There are highly educated, reputable people that are saying this is true. It's simply not possible and isn't a valid selling point for me.
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