Problems with P.fridmani eggs

Problems with P.fridmani eggs

Postby Luis A M » Sun Jul 28, 2013 5:07 pm

I keep two pairs of orchid dotties spawning regularly.But the egg balls always dissapear 1-3 days later.
It could be that the eggs were infertile or that they were consumed for some other reason.
We have a wealth of orchid spawning reports here and some have faced this same problem.
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Re: Problems with P.fridmani eggs

Postby Luis A M » Sun Jul 28, 2013 5:11 pm

I pulled a spawn at day two,and examined it:the eggs were clear,looking healthy.And many show developing embryos! :shock:
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Re: Problems with P.fridmani eggs

Postby Luis A M » Tue Jul 30, 2013 2:14 pm

I tried artificial incubation in a tumbler.Which was made with a cut off soda bottle set in a artemia hatching base.And set inside a 10 g tank with running water.
This didn´t work well,however.Rising bubbles were rough with the egg mass,and setting the right air flow was tricky,with the egg ball either falling in the bottle´s neck or being blown out of the tumbler :x
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Re: Problems with P.fridmani eggs

Postby Luis A M » Tue Jul 30, 2013 8:05 pm

Bad results :( .The egg mass became milky and then gas bubbles within made it buoyant.
But some eggs kept developing for some time as these refringent eyes show.
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Re: Problems with P.fridmani eggs

Postby Luis A M » Fri Aug 02, 2013 1:39 pm

So it seems the eggs were bad,except for some few,which died anyway,as they were part of the fouled egg mass.This pair had the spawn dissapearing the 1st day after spawning.
Now I tried eggs from the other pair,which last 2-3 days,pulled on the spawning day.
But now I am using a different tumbler;a wine glass with a jet of water hitting inside :idea:
On the 1st day,only some few eggs were opaque,most were clear and some were embryonated. 8)
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Re: Problems with P.fridmani eggs

Postby Luis A M » Fri Aug 02, 2013 7:49 pm

And on the 2nd day post spawning,results are much better;the egg ball remains clear and looking healthy.This incubation/tumbling method is definitely better! 8)
While most of the clear eggs didn´t develop,there are still many good ones,with large embryos showing refringent eyes.
They look similar to my previous picture,but these embryos are motile! 8)
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Re: Problems with P.fridmani eggs

Postby Luis A M » Sat Aug 03, 2013 8:57 pm

Third day and eyes are bigger.Yolk sac is reduced.
The glass wine tumbler works great! 8)
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Re: Problems with P.fridmani eggs

Postby Derwins » Sun Aug 04, 2013 1:42 am

looking good ....

idiot question : what about the Methylene blue...
is this used in marine breeding as it is in fresh water ?

edit derwins: yes it is ..but peroxyde is better .
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Re: Problems with P.fridmani eggs

Postby Luis A M » Sun Aug 04, 2013 7:39 pm

As Martin M. says. BUMMER!!!! :evil: :( :cry:
There was a sign of danger yesterday,embryos didn´t move :? .But I didn´t give it much consideration.
But there were no hatches in the 4th night;instead the egg ball was found floating!
And I was so confident that my tumbling method was perfect,the egg ball kept spinning softly and eggs were developing.
So what could go wrong? likely some bacterial attack on the egg mass :? But then,how does the male prevents this while brooding,if he does at all?.
Which brings the antibacterial issues,this tumbler works with system water,thus no drugs can be used.Only short baths with strong antibacterials,like peroxide or formalin.
In a static tumbler one could use antibiotics and such.
Derwins,meth.blue is traditional in FW as a fungal prevention when incubating eggs.It is seldom used in SW and I am not sure it would be useful.Or that egg problems are really produced by fungi :?
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Re: Problems with P.fridmani eggs

Postby Amie » Mon Aug 05, 2013 3:27 pm

Who knows what actually happens inside the mouth of the male while holding the eggs. The fact that they are in a tight space while developing would mean that they are being 'rubbed' by the sides of the male's mouth. I have often wondered if having a microscopic roughness to the edges of the kreisel would help alleviate fungus build-up.

Have you tried putting a few drops of hydrogen peroxide in with the eggs before suspending them?
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Re: Problems with P.fridmani eggs

Postby Luis A M » Tue Aug 06, 2013 5:27 pm

Amie,pseudochromids are not mouthbrooders,so any antibacterial effect provided by the male has to be via skin mucus.
Otherwise,bacteria attack eggs same with natural or artificial brooding,which is something we have to look into. :?
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Re: Problems with P.fridmani eggs

Postby Amie » Thu Aug 08, 2013 8:14 pm

Luis A M wrote:Amie,pseudochromids are not mouthbrooders,so any antibacterial effect provided by the male has to be via skin mucus.
Otherwise,bacteria attack eggs same with natural or artificial brooding,which is something we have to look into. :?



oops, sorry, don't know why I jumped to that conclusion. I guess I got it from your statement, "But then,how does the male prevents this while brooding,if he does at all?"

Can you tell us more about your tumbler? do you have a picture of it?
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Re: Problems with P.fridmani eggs

Postby Luis A M » Fri Aug 09, 2013 12:18 am

No problem,you were probably thinking in Assesors :wink:
Just a wine glass,but I can take a pic of the whole thing working.
I pulled a new ball today,and most eggs are fertile.I will give daily formalin baths this time :?
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Re: Problems with P.fridmani eggs

Postby hawgdawg » Fri Aug 09, 2013 6:16 am

yellow assessors are not mouthbrooders either
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Re: Problems with P.fridmani eggs

Postby Luis A M » Fri Aug 09, 2013 11:50 am

hawgdawg wrote:yellow assessors are not mouthbrooders either

Certainly.I imagined Amie was thinking in the blues :wink:
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Re: Problems with P.fridmani eggs

Postby Luis A M » Sun Aug 11, 2013 6:52 pm

New run in the tumbler,but this time giving daily formalin baths.
At day 3,they look very much like the previous picture.But with a difference:these embryos are alive! 8)
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Re: Problems with P.fridmani eggs

Postby Luis A M » Mon Aug 12, 2013 2:31 pm

Complete failure again :evil:
No hatches in the 4th night.Instead tha egg mass was found floating in the morning.Eggs were opaque and embryos dead.
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Re: Problems with P.fridmani eggs

Postby till » Tue Aug 13, 2013 7:06 am

strange. I never had problems with dottyback eggs disappearing or not hatching. Maybe a nutritional problem?
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Re: Problems with P.fridmani eggs

Postby ShannPeach » Tue Aug 13, 2013 8:44 am

Finally got over here to your thread!

I have not had any luck with artificial incubation since the one time about four weeks ago. The last couple times the egg ball has remained intact, but seems to just....die. The last few spawns I haven't checked to see if the eggs have been fertilized, but I will at their next spawn. Part of my problem may be that they have started changing the time between spawns (7 days to 6 days), so it's possible the last couple times that I missed the spawn right after it happened the eggs were just exposed to copper for too long. I will also do another copper test on the system to see how much copper there really is in the water. This is quite frustrating :x
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Re: Problems with P.fridmani eggs

Postby Luis A M » Tue Aug 13, 2013 1:57 pm

till wrote:strange. I never had problems with dottyback eggs disappearing or not hatching. Maybe a nutritional problem?

I don´t think so.Many people had the same problem with P.fridmani eggs,perhaps 50% of the breeders.It must be something in the water,bacterial if not chemical. :?
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Re: Problems with P.fridmani eggs

Postby Luis A M » Tue Aug 13, 2013 2:37 pm

Shannon,I´m glad you found the way back,welcome! :D I see you are an old time mofiber :wink:
Do you have a dissecting scope?.My fish spawn by mid day and at the evening the early embryonic cell mass can be seen.
1st day:small translucent embryo.
2nd day:large motile embryo with pigmented,though not refringent eyes.
3rd day:larger,with refringent eyes.
They were supposed to hatch that night,the 4th.But death stopped them. :(
Interestingly,when left with the male,eggs dissapeared one day after with one pair and 2-3 days after with the other.And this correlates with what is seen under artificial incubation.Daily formalin baths didn´t change much;only made embryos survive to the 3rd day,in one case,but didn´t help with the other,where development stopped on the 1st day,even if the eggs were fertile.
My current tumbling method uses system water flow,and thus only short term baths can be applied.I will try H2O2 next time,perhaps 2-3 times/day.
And I could set an UV to treat tumbler water.
Other than that,if I want to provide some continuous treatment,a different system must be designed.
All this under the hypothesis that the eggs are killed by some bacteria,that affect them at different times but not eggs of other species breeding in the same system :?
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Re: Problems with P.fridmani eggs

Postby Luis A M » Wed Aug 21, 2013 4:20 pm

New run,this time giving H2O2 baths (5 ml/L,15´) twice daily.
Results were about the same,or even worse. :evil:
One of the balls was ruined by the 1st day.The other was clear and with good fertility and development.Embryos were active on the 2nd day.
But on the 3rd day it became opaque and embryos died.
Something in the water is killing the developing eggs.
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Re: Problems with P.fridmani eggs

Postby Luis A M » Thu Sep 19, 2013 10:41 pm

And still a new run,this time with a different aproach.
This is a static system.I made a new tumbler with a cut inverted soda bottle,which receives flow from a small pump,regulated by means of an in-line valve.The pump inlet is covered with a gauze.The whole contraption is placed in a BRT.New,sterilized water treated with antibiotics.The egg ball had a formalin treatment before going into the tumbler.
Spring is almot here,but we had very cold weather and water was about 23ºC.This slowed down egg development which took one day more than what is described above.
So the refringent eyes stage was reached today at 4th day.But with a noteworthy improvement:this time the embryos are alive and moving! :D And many of them! 8)
Was it the antibacterial treatment or was it the lower temp? :?
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Re: Problems with P.fridmani eggs

Postby Luis A M » Fri Sep 20, 2013 8:40 pm

They didn´t hatch.But they look nice and healthy,motile and with a smaller yolk sac. 8)
Guess they´ll hatch tonight :?
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Re: Problems with P.fridmani eggs

Postby Luis A M » Sat Sep 21, 2013 2:40 am

HATCHING! :D
They hatched on the 6th night,lots of them!.This is my first good Pseudochromis hatch. 8)
Larvae are 3mm TL,strong and well developed.They have pectoral fins and a small yolk sac.There is a white mark in the rear third,like neon goby larvae.
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