Am I doing something wrong?

Am I doing something wrong?

Postby WDLV » Wed Apr 23, 2008 12:08 pm

I would really like to see some of my anemonefish spawn... Is there something that I should do differently to see this happen or is it simply a matter of patience?
- I am keeping almost a dozen pairs of different types ranging between 2 years and a couple weeks. All were paired by me.
- Most are in tanks that are 18x12x12, some (saddleback complex) are in 30 and 40 breeders.
- I keep them in "sterile" type tanks with no substrate and only a flowerpot for shelter.
- The temp ranges between 75 and 82 depending on the season.
- I have been feeding twice or more daily about 5 different quality flake foods (OSI and formula I, II etc), freeze dried cyclopeeze, spectra pellets, OSI pellets, frozen brine shrimp, frozen cyclopeeze, frozen mysis, frozen daphnia, frozen plankton and a handfull of other random frozen foods. I also feed live BS and bloodworms on occasion.
- My water parameters are reasonably good. I do weekly water changes of 20%-50% and plan to add on to the system some better filtration and some more volume... possibly larger tanks.
They are in an area of very low traffic (dedicated fish room.)

I am looking at providing some of the more established pairs with an anemone and a 100 gallon rubbermaid sump of their own to sweeten the deal a little. Do you all think this will help? Is it just a time factor? What might I do differently?
- Walt
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Postby Kmiec123 » Wed Apr 23, 2008 5:12 pm

What's your lighting time cylce at?
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Postby WDLV » Wed Apr 23, 2008 5:46 pm

It was at 12 hours. I just changed it to 14 hours over the weekend.
- Walt
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Postby Colby » Wed Apr 23, 2008 6:00 pm

Here is what I would do, keep in mind everyone has different "tricks"...

-Increase the temperature to 85F...
-Feed at least ten times a day...
-REMOVE flake food from the diet completely..I hate the stuff.
-Put some Potassium Permaganate in the water..or just some of that chemi
clean or whatever it is called cyno remover...
-Dose with Iodine

Good luck.

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Re:

Postby mpedersen » Wed Apr 23, 2008 6:38 pm

Colby wrote:-Increase the temperature to 85F...


A good suggestion!

-Feed at least ten times a day...


What kind of feedings Colby? Always to saturation, or just light feedings + one saturation feeding?

-REMOVE flake food from the diet completely..I hate the stuff.


Partially aggree. I think it's a great staple base for fish you are growing up, BUT remember that it takes a TON of flake for a larger fish to get anythign out of it. Pellets are a much better "version" of dry food to offer.

-Put some Potassium Permaganate in the water..or just some of that chemi
clean or whatever it is called cyno remover...


Woah...two very different chemicals...cyano remover is an antibiotic last I checked. PP does entirely different stuff. Colby, may I ask, what is the 'end game' theory behind adding either of these chemicals?

-Dose with Iodine


I do in my broodstock tanks. Well, actually my broodstocks are reefs...dosing Vitamins (Reef Plus) and for calcium / alkalinity in addition to Iodide. Basically, providing better conditions and covering your bases certainly cannot hurt your chances.

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Re:

Postby Fishboy42 » Wed Apr 23, 2008 6:42 pm

Colby wrote:-REMOVE flake food from the diet completely...


This was my first reaction as well.

Surely 10x daily feedings would be good too if you can find time for it. I think how Colby manages to feed so often is his REAL secret :)

I might suggest adding some frozen seafoods to their diet in-place of the flakes, perhaps minced table shrimp, squid, mussels, etc. It takes longer to prepare and feed, but the fish get more quality calories this way, and you can make dinner for yourself with the extra (well, there was once extra anyway :) )

I'd second bumping the temperature up, or at least considering 78-80 as your lowest temp.

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Postby Colby » Wed Apr 23, 2008 7:23 pm

Well both the chemi clean and the PP raise the redox and burn off organics in the water which "cleans" the water and seems to induce spawning....

I saturation feed 10-20x a day..obviously with that number of feedings it only takes a minute or two each time lol.

I like the spectrum pellets, thera A I believe it is called and I use it in lieu of flakes...

My main staple though is black worms and my own food mix.

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Postby WDLV » Wed Apr 23, 2008 7:32 pm

Thanks for the numerous and prompt replies!
What is saturation feeding???
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Postby WDLV » Wed Apr 23, 2008 9:22 pm

I'm guessin' saturation feeding means saturating the water with live food and allowing the fish to take their fill as would be done with larvae. If so, how on earth does one combat the ammonia and nitrates?!?!?!?!
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Postby William » Wed Apr 23, 2008 9:24 pm

Feeding them until they will eat no more.
Last edited by William on Wed Apr 23, 2008 10:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby WDLV » Wed Apr 23, 2008 9:55 pm

I did a google search and found that one source was raising temps and dissolved O2 levels and saw an increased feeding response (in channel catfish.) Their definition was to basically saturate the water with a specific weight of food until the fish stopped eating then screen out the food and re-weigh it to see what was eaten.
I'm seeing the correlation now!
I'm a little freaked about raising the temp that high. Not to argue, but rather to explain my apprehension..... I have lost corals and seen fish get sick with ick and or other paracites when the tank gets in these temp ranges. Perhaps this will be different in a "sterile" system. I will have to be sure to add my skimmer to the rack system before doing these saturation feedings.
Colby,
What size tanks are you using for larger clowns? Or are you strictly a percula kind of guy?
- Walt
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Postby Colby » Wed Apr 23, 2008 10:00 pm

I can fully understand you apprehension in regards to the temperature issue, but I assure you the fish can go to 90F and breed...

Most of my pairs get 5g, some of the really large ones will get a 10g, if they are lucky lol. Honestly though, 10g is more than enough size for any species of clown.

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Postby WDLV » Wed Apr 23, 2008 10:06 pm

Here's the basic setup. The top rack is seven sections that are 18x12x12 the lowers are 40 breeders. The right 40 is currently divided in half and has a pair of tomatos and a pair of polymnus. The top rack now has a pair of true percs added to the list. Oh, and there is no longer any porous substrate in any of the tanks.

Image
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Re:

Postby mpedersen » Thu Apr 24, 2008 1:31 am

Colby wrote:I can fully understand you apprehension in regards to the temperature issue, but I assure you the fish can go to 90F and breed...


Colby, I may have asked this before, but it's my understanding that 90F is to the point where dissolved O2 levels are too low to sustain our fish life. Are you sure it was actually 90F, or is there a possibility the thermometer on your broodstock system could be a few degrees off?

Honestly though, 10g is more than enough size for any species of clown.


Seeing RPI's setup I'd mostly agree, with the exception that exceptionally large pairs (fish where both mates are up in the 6" range) are given "double" tanks closer to 20 gallons.

FYI, on "saturation feeding" Walt, the general method to use is to feed a bit, make sure they eat it all, feed a bit more, wait again, and the moment they let the food go uneated, they are "saturated". That way you're not wasting a ton of food, but it will take more time than Colby's feeding method (which isn't really saturation feeding, I'd say it's simpy constant small feedings..the closest to what the clowns would get in the wild). I feed at least 5-6 small feedings per day..pretty much whenever I feel like it..

BTW, Colby hits on a crucial note - Live Blackworms are thought to encourage spawning in reluctant spawners.

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Postby Colby » Thu Apr 24, 2008 1:38 am

Yeah, believe it or not...90F lol. I know it is accurate as I used the labs fancy thermometers to double check.

No doubt the fish would be happier in a 20g, however ten seems doable. Having said that, I think a 6" maroon would be better of in a 10g than a 6" Clarkii would.

Blackworms are a god send, as is fish roe....and I hate to say it here, but baby clownfish are perfect food for spawning adults...they seem to have a nutritional profile that is perfect for increasing clutch size.

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Re:

Postby mpedersen » Thu Apr 24, 2008 1:48 am

Colby wrote:Yeah, believe it or not...90F lol. I know it is accurate as I used the labs fancy thermometers to double check.


I had to do some quick digging, and this chart stops at 86F, but I suppose max dissolved O2 levels could still be "OK"...it doesn't look like the water's saturation level would be at 0 going up another 4 degrees.

http://www.algone.com/oxygen.php

Makes me feel a bit more comfortable about 90F - that cetainly raises the metabolism. However, that could also shorten the lifespan considerably...I was happy to see my tank temps go down this winter and slow my Onyx Pair...no need for them to be breeding so frequently when I'm not rearing them...and maybe that'll let them stick around LONGER :)

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Postby WDLV » Thu Apr 24, 2008 7:24 am

Looks like I'll have to take measures to move my latz elsewhere. I'm pretty sure I don't want them in a tank that hot.
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Postby anemone123 » Thu Apr 24, 2008 11:39 am

Are the partitions see through? If each pair can see the pair next to them they will spend more energy protecting their territory than getting their groove on.
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Re:

Postby WDLV » Thu Apr 24, 2008 12:07 pm

anemone123 wrote:Are the partitions see through? If each pair can see the pair next to them they will spend more energy protecting their territory than getting their groove on.

Not when they're dirty. They are sanded on both sides, so they're semi opaque, but shilouettes can be seen. If/when I build another rack system this will be a focus. As it stands they do not seem to notice one another.
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Postby HereFishyFishy » Tue Apr 29, 2008 6:29 pm

I feed spectrum grow and masago once a day then as I was closing up every other day, then every 2 days. When the masago ran out and I was just feeding to keep them going. They STILL LAID huge nests.

Granted every tank had cheato and perhaps this housed pods and leftovers. I never feed more then once a day.
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Postby WDLV » Tue Apr 29, 2008 7:57 pm

Masago.... where would I get that if not in a roll? Tobiko tastes much better to me. Esp with quail egg. But alas, I digress. Thanks. Now I'm hungry.
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Postby HereFishyFishy » Tue Apr 29, 2008 9:40 pm

Local Asian grocery store. $6 was enough for months.
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Postby mthompson » Thu May 08, 2008 1:43 pm

Sorry to nit-pick....but the term is Satiation (def.- satiated; the condition of being full or beyond satisfaction), not saturation. Other than that, a really good thread. Definitely tagging along.
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