Ethics with in the market....whats your thoughts?

Ethics with in the market....whats your thoughts?

Postby downbydasea » Fri Mar 01, 2013 10:41 pm

I wanted to throw this out on the table and see what peoples thoughts are?
Recently there was a post that got hammered because the seller was offering a fish that was suprisingly below the market value.
Now it has come to my attention that this same person is now offering the same fish in lots of 10 for a cost that is very close to wholesale cost.
The important thing is I am not trying to throw the guy under the bus, however I am sure it wont be hard to figure out who it his and I am not asking him to defend or justify his actions. I am curious if he understands what affect it is having on the market.
In my area on the local forums this offer has appeared, as I am sure word of it is currently traveling through several other forums, and has caused quite a stur. In a reactive mode there are several LFS responding by matching the bulk price on individual sales which is awsome for a lot of people that have been waiting to get one of these fish because they were generally thought of being one of the topend fish. Now on the other hand I know of several breeders that this isnt setting well with either just based on the fact the value of their stock is being affected in a big way.
Then there is the supplier that is providing these fish, as the value falls the bottom line price falls as well. With the supplier condoning this type of marketing is it in their best over all intrest?
I understand that this is a free trade country, however shouldnt there be some form of ethics followed in our trade market? Shouldnt there be some seperation between wholesale and retail? If this is exceptable then why should there be "wholesale only" if the retailer is willing to sale to the general population at near wholesale pricing?
Just wanted to see if this was a concern to anyone else, again thanks for your time.

James
When someone shares something of value with you, and you benefit from it, you have a moral obligation to share it with others.
Chinese Proverb
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Re: Ethics with in the market....whats your thoughts?

Postby chuggy » Sat Mar 02, 2013 10:49 am

i Just saw a guy on ebay selling snowflake occelaris for 35 a piece. Which is what my local fish stores give me then sell them for a $100 a piece. So heres my quick 2 cents.

Its not that hard to raise clowns ive personally taught 5 or 6 people and they have all been semi successful at it. Especially now a days with sites like this one.

So if 1 guy goes out and buys a proven pair then fills a tank full of babies and wants to make a quick buck, AINT NOTHING GONNA STOP EM. Its human nature. :evil:

I dont agree with it but theres nothing you can do about it. Its a cowboy market where really the prices are determined by supply and demand which is constantly changing between breeds. Or should i say cross breeds.
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Re: Ethics with in the market....whats your thoughts?

Postby Luis A M » Sat Mar 02, 2013 12:13 pm

It is indeed about the market laws.New fancy clown strains sell for top prices,but mostly are bought by other breeders expecting to make lots of $$$ themselves.Given the exponential growth of the number of these fish offered,the breeders market is saturated and the price drops until it reaches a bit above that of normal clowns.
This process can be accelerated with the introduction of fancy clowns bred in east Asia.
Recently our LFS received large adult Picassos from Singapore that retail at about USD 60.Given that in this country fish prices are roughly twice as high as in USA,you could expect them being sold at about USD 30 there.
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Re: Ethics with in the market....whats your thoughts?

Postby hawgdawg » Mon Mar 04, 2013 10:12 am

What other industry do you know of where people are "ethical" when it comes to pricing their product? Some might say that selling a clownfish for 200$ is really what is"unethical", or a rip off.

Supply and demand will always be the driving force behind pricing in any industry. This is great for the consumer, not so great for those who make a living from it. If you want to remain competitive, you have to adapt to the current market landscape.
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Ethics with in the market....whats your thoughts?

Postby LargeAngels » Mon Mar 04, 2013 5:33 pm

I think people have gotten used to these fancy clowns fetching top dollars and hoping the price will stay that way.

What about the mccullochi clowns that were $5,000 a pair and now DD is selling them for $400.00. What would a fair price be?
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Re: Ethics with in the market....whats your thoughts?

Postby KathyL » Tue Mar 05, 2013 12:29 am

We are having these issues in my neck of the woods as well. New local fish breeders are underselling me like crazy. I hardly sell to local stores anymore. But there is no point to my lowering my prices. My plan is to wait them out. When they realize how little they are getting paid for their labor, they may decided to quit. When they decide that they can't get along with the local store owners, they may decide to quit. Or maybe they won't, and then it will be time for me to move on to something else.

Why engage in a race to the bottom of the price scale? If we do that, nobody wins.

This has nothing to do with ethics. It is just business. It may take some time before my competitors realize their mistake, or perhaps for me to realize mine. It's nothing personal, just business.
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Re: Ethics with in the market....whats your thoughts?

Postby JCallahan » Tue Mar 05, 2013 12:38 am

A price drop has little to do with ethics and mostly those who complain about them are competitors. Wyoming Whites are no longer rare and should not be priced as such, which I assume this is why this thread was started. We share our buying power with our customers rather than try and squeeze nickels from them. We treat our customers how we would want to be treated by our friends, we do not eye them as a commodity to use and discard hoping to find the next customer to fleece. My guess is this is why SilverBow Aquariums has grown so fast and will continue to do so. So, I guess "ethics in the market" depends on your perspective.
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Re: Ethics with in the market....whats your thoughts?

Postby DanUnderwood » Tue Mar 05, 2013 10:01 am

I have to agree with Kathy. I see people pop up all the time with cheaper seahorses and then disappear. I maintain competitive pricing but enough to make a profit. Often home breeders will offer up cheap pricing but many under estimate their costs or off set it with their regular job. Eventually if they are too under priced, they eventually realize it. For us, I have found that maintaining consistent pricing and quality is key. Many that have gone elsewhere eventually come back.

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Re: Ethics with in the market....whats your thoughts?

Postby hawgdawg » Tue Mar 05, 2013 10:18 am

DanUnderwood is correct, we've all seen our share of garage breeders come and go on this forum, some are in the process of "going" as we speak. As KathyL says, you need to stand the test of time, and usually only those that do this for a living (not a hobby) will persist.
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Re: Ethics with in the market....whats your thoughts?

Postby ClownfishHatchery » Tue Mar 05, 2013 6:14 pm

+1 @ Kathy and Dan

hawgdawg wrote:DanUnderwood is correct, we've all seen our share of garage breeders come and go on this forum, some are in the process of "going" as we speak. As KathyL says, you need to stand the test of time, and usually only those that do this for a living (not a hobby) will persist.


As we all know, like hawg said, breeders will come and go, but I don't think this thread was potinted at breeders as much as it was to target the clownfish "resellers"

Most if not all breeders know how much time and money it takes to get a clownfish to market. These "resellers" who buy their clownfish at wholesale prices, then try and make a quick buck by undercutting their local, and internet competition and the ones who are not only hurting themselves, but making a bad name for the hobby.

There has to be a happy balance. In time these fly by night resellers will see the point and adjust their prices, or simply go out of business. We have seen them come and go and history will ultimately repeat itself with these failed attempts of a get rich quick scheme.

Anyone idiot can buy a clownfish wholesale, keep it in a holding tank, and then sell and ship it. Bravo!! Job well done!!
Try and do something a little more constructive and raise a few batches and then come talk to me.
Don't ruin the market for the breeders because without them you would not have any fish to sell. There is plenty of money to go around and this is a much smaller community than most people think and I would not want to be "blacklisted" if I was a reseller.


Just my 2 cents/thoughts :D
Last edited by ClownfishHatchery on Tue Mar 05, 2013 9:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ethics with in the market....whats your thoughts?

Postby aquagrrl » Tue Mar 05, 2013 7:56 pm

ClownfishHatchery, I get what you're saying, but I don't agree. Resellers might cut into your business but they have just as much right to do that over "wasting" their time breeding. If anything, they're probably the smarter business if they can make it work. If they can't, then they fail and fall out of the market, problem solved. I mean, if you think about it, that's what a lot of online vendors did to brick and mortar shops. It's adapt or die. If you offer quality stock, then people will choose you over cheaper, crappier stock. Unless their stock is just as good; then you've got another problem.

As someone who considers herself a hobbyist, I sell at cheaper prices because I don't intend to make back all the money I've spent - I just hope to get a little back for my troubles. "Salt Money" as a fellow aquarist once put it.

The other issue in this thread is the price drop of designer/hard to get clowns. As someone who's followed in the reptile trade and the freshwater trade, that's just what happens. Some people take a gamble and buy early, making money while they're still pricy. But it's a race to do that, which ends up driving down prices. Until the next morph comes around. If you wait until the price comes down a bit, you might still get in on the mad rush, or you might lose out. Seriously, check out snake morphs; it's the best demonstration of how that works. Some morphs are more difficult to breed, but most are just as easy as normal colored ones. The difference is scarcity. When everyone races to buy and breed, the market gets flooded.
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