Are Tariffs a way to help the hobby?

Are Tariffs a way to help the hobby?

Postby Kmiec123 » Tue Sep 15, 2009 11:12 am

With President Obama, of the US, enforcing trade tariffs with China in regards to the Tire/rubber industry, Is this a way to go to lobby to get support on for increased taxes or tariffs on imports to the US of Marine animals?
What's you thoughts?
Is this something other country's can try to increase the participation of local breeder?
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Re: Are Tariffs a way to help the hobby?

Postby xroads » Tue Sep 15, 2009 12:10 pm

I have thought this same thing. Not only on fish that can be bred in captivity, but also coral as well that can be farmed.
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Re: Are Tariffs a way to help the hobby?

Postby enigma » Tue Sep 15, 2009 5:39 pm

The truth is anything that drives up the price of WC Marine Ornamental's is double edged good and bad. By increasing costs associated with WC specimens we encourage captive breeding and ensure better care since the animal have more monetary value and investment. The down side is some specie of Marine fish are extremely difficult to CB and would disappear from the trade and the hobby will be further out of reach for some hobbyist's shrinking our industry further.

I am rather ambivalent on both sides. Truly a complex issue.

Ultimately the animals can only benefit from higher costs and more regulations in the short term while their plight and our understanding of them will be damaged by these changes in the long run.
With reasonable men, I will reason; with humane men I will plead; but to tyrants I will give no quarter, nor waste arguments where they will certainly be lost. --William Lloyd Garrison--
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Re: Are Tariffs a way to help the hobby?

Postby spawner » Tue Sep 15, 2009 9:22 pm

This has been discussed, but we have Free Trade agreements with many countries and that would cause an issue with that. Here is an interesting note. Some countries charge a large duty on imports, Brazil is a good example. Now what do you think the exporters in the US sometimes do in regards to the invoices for fish send to brazil. Lots of one dollar fish.

I think a well placed tariff could so some real good. There is a positive correlation between how much someone spends on a fish and how well they take care of it, at the wholesale and retail levels. Royal Grammas are one of the best examples. Most of these sit in bags at importers for days before being shipped on. They are so cheap they literally are to expensive to acclimatize and re-bag. The drive for cheap fish are cause of most of our problems.....
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Re: Are Tariffs a way to help the hobby?

Postby "Umm, fish?" » Tue Sep 15, 2009 9:37 pm

Andy

“Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.” --Mark Twain
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Re: Are Tariffs a way to help the hobby?

Postby Kmiec123 » Wed Sep 16, 2009 9:44 am

I suppose if Mofib was to show a benefit from a Tax or fee for incoming or traded WC fish that are easily breed, and not all trades or species, that may help.
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Re: Are Tariffs a way to help the hobby?

Postby Clownfish75 » Wed Sep 16, 2009 7:37 pm

hang on boys, why would i be supporting a tariff on USA imports of marine fish?

You seem to forget were some of us are!

Christian
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Re: Are Tariffs a way to help the hobby?

Postby William » Wed Sep 16, 2009 8:55 pm

If you are going to put a tax on wild livestock the tax would have to be ALL wild livestock, not just species that have CB alternatives. Otherwise I expect the following scenario to play out over and over.

- Yellow tangs currently not currently CB so wholesalers can get them cheep. $1 per fish.
- Breeder X spends $$$ figuring out how to breed yellow tangs. Yellow tangs are now available CB so the tax is applicable. After tax WC yellow tangs cost the wholesalers $10 per fish.
- Wholesalers boycott breeder X's CB fish so that breeder X goes out of business. CB yellow tangs no longer exist, the tax goes away, and the wholesalers are happy again because they can again get WC yellow tangs for $1.
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Re: Are Tariffs a way to help the hobby?

Postby Kmiec123 » Thu Sep 17, 2009 10:54 am

Clownfish75 wrote:hang on boys, why would i be supporting a tariff on USA imports of marine fish?

You seem to forget were some of us are!

Christian

I was not keeping you out Christian,;) I was suggesting an import tax in any country to help promote local breeders.
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Re: Are Tariffs a way to help the hobby?

Postby Kmiec123 » Thu Sep 17, 2009 10:58 am

acroporas wrote:If you are going to put a tax on wild livestock the tax would have to be ALL wild livestock, not just species that have CB alternatives. Otherwise I expect the following scenario to play out over and over.

- Yellow tangs currently not currently CB so wholesalers can get them cheep. $1 per fish.
- Breeder X spends $$$ figuring out how to breed yellow tangs. Yellow tangs are now available CB so the tax is applicable. After tax WC yellow tangs cost the wholesalers $10 per fish.
- Wholesalers boycott breeder X's CB fish so that breeder X goes out of business. CB yellow tangs no longer exist, the tax goes away, and the wholesalers are happy again because they can again get WC yellow tangs for $1.


Good point Will, But with Mofib as a breeders coalition, more likely there will be other breeders out there, also if we stick together and one breeder is getting boycotted, I think organizing to boycott that wholesaler would be easier for us to do than a wholesaler boycotting one breeder for producing a marketable fish. I'm not suggesting we turn into the Mafia of fish breeders, but helping each other out is part of what this is all about, in my opinion. :D
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Re: Are Tariffs a way to help the hobby?

Postby Almon » Thu Sep 17, 2009 4:32 pm

I would support legislation for tarrifs on the import of marine animals. Much more needs to be done to help the reefs. I think most of us [conveniently] forget that this "Hobby", among other things, is helping to destroy the reefs. The majority of wild caught fish, inverts, and corals are dead within months of being captured.

Many corals are being propagated in the hobby and there are many small individual breeders that provide tank raised fish to the hobby, but it's truely less than a drop in the bucket. I have a price list of animals from Sea Dwelling Creatures and 98% of the fish are wild caught. Only a couple species of clowns appear as tank raised. Everything else is wild caught....everything.

The individual breeders like yourselves need to group together to affect greater change in the industry. Instead of selling a dozen or two here and there, you should be selling thousands. You should be working together in co-op type groups to provide fish to the large importers to offset what they take from the wild.

And yes, more expensive wild caught fish would greatly help this cause.
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Re: Are Tariffs a way to help the hobby?

Postby Clownfish75 » Thu Sep 17, 2009 5:43 pm

I was not keeping you out Christian,;) I was suggesting an import tax in any country to help promote local breeders


Carl, i dont need a tax on fish to import into Australia, I have complete protection in the fact your not allowed to import cultured marine fish into Australia at all.

Problem is that I need the export market to make a functioning business, so in effect your saying no Christian you cant export to a free market like USA, this would make my production very difficult to sell.

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Re: Are Tariffs a way to help the hobby?

Postby skearse » Tue Sep 22, 2009 5:10 pm

Almon wrote:Many corals are being propagated in the hobby and there are many small individual breeders that provide tank raised fish to the hobby, but it's truely less than a drop in the bucket. I have a price list of animals from Sea Dwelling Creatures and 98% of the fish are wild caught. Only a couple species of clowns appear as tank raised. Everything else is wild caught....everything.


And this for me is one of the key things that would need to be defined and hammered out before such an idea could have any traction at all...what constitutes availability of CB fish or tank propogated coral? Since harlequin filefish have been bred and raised in captivity, would those then be subject to a tarriff...or do only operations such as ORA have the volume availability to be considered truly available? Ditto propagated corals...most of us with frag tanks would hardly consider ourselves capable of offsetting (putting a dent in) any reduction in imports that a tarriff may create. While the idea would possibly reduce the impact to the wild reefs, since the original question was whether or not it would belp the hobby, I think in fact it may very well have the opposite effect.
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Re: Are Tariffs a way to help the hobby?

Postby Almon » Tue Sep 22, 2009 6:58 pm

skearse wrote:While the idea would possibly reduce the impact to the wild reefs, since the original question was whether or not it would belp the hobby, I think in fact it may very well have the opposite effect.

That's a good point. I think there are many answers based on the perceived priorities of each individual. The answer for me is that it probably would not affect me too much because I don't buy wild corals and I don't normally buy wild fish. In my view, it would affect the 90% of newbies that enter the hobby simply to kill their livestock, fail, and quit. That's good, IMO. I appreciate the fact that there are many views and opinions about this hobby and my view is not the only view.

skearse wrote: do only operations such as ORA have the volume availability to be considered truly available? Ditto propagated corals...most of us with frag tanks would hardly consider ourselves capable of offsetting (putting a dent in) any reduction in imports that a tarriff may create.

I have an idea to organize local breeders into regional co-op type organizations that are able to be recognized by competors and government.
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Re: Are Tariffs a way to help the hobby?

Postby Kmiec123 » Wed Sep 23, 2009 10:37 am

These types of Ideas are what part of what Mofib is about. The Market place is being reworked and the goal is to have an easy way for local breeders to find marketplaces. Almon I welcome you and your ideas to Mofib and I would be willing to help in your project, lets start taking some action and getting thing moving. :D You want to start a committee? :D
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