I'm confused

I'm confused

Postby spawner » Wed Mar 19, 2008 1:04 pm

Shocking I know. But it's true.

Why are cardiean shrimp like Thor and Hymenocera in the "True Shrimp" forum (Order Penaeidea)?

Have fun with Thor, they are the easiest shrimp I have ever reared. Everyone should be able to get in on the BC for this species.
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Postby mpedersen » Wed Mar 19, 2008 1:25 pm

What forum DO they belong in? (admittedly I'm not up on my inverts and frankly just don't know!!! )

I can make the adjustments necessary..LMK what is appropriate (and why)

Can you please tell us more about how you've raised Thor amboinensis in another thread??

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Last edited by Anonymous on Wed Mar 19, 2008 2:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Luis A M » Wed Mar 19, 2008 2:25 pm

I kept a group of four,two pairs I guess for some time.and never got eggs :(
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Re:

Postby William » Wed Mar 19, 2008 3:49 pm

mpedersen wrote:What forum DO they belong in? (admittedly I'm not up on my inverts and frankly just don't know!!! )

Matt


Thor amboinensis belongs in:

Crustaceans – Snapping & Grass Shrimp
This forum is dedicated to reports of breeding and rearing of the Infraorder Caridae except the Genus Lysmata. Examples include Palemonetes sp. shrimp and Periclimenes sp. cleaning shrimp. (Subphylum Crustacea, Class Malacostraca)
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Re:

Postby spawner » Wed Mar 19, 2008 7:43 pm

acroporas wrote:
mpedersen wrote:What forum DO they belong in? (admittedly I'm not up on my inverts and frankly just don't know!!! )

Matt


Thor amboinensis belongs in:

Crustaceans – Snapping & Grass Shrimp
This forum is dedicated to reports of breeding and rearing of the Infraorder Caridae except the Genus Lysmata. Examples include Palemonetes sp. shrimp and Periclimenes sp. cleaning shrimp. (Subphylum Crustacea, Class Malacostraca)


Ah now that is better and correct. I'm assuming that you split Lysmata because you considered it to be special due to the high level of interest.

I'd change it to Crustaceans- caridean shrimp excluding Lysmata. Caridean shrimp brood their eggs. Examples are Sexy Shrimp, Snapping Shrimp, Harlequin shrimp, Saron shrimp.


Luis,

Bet you have two males or two females together. I just put 15 shrimp in a tank and had larvae in 3-4 weeks. Females have wider abdomens and are a bit bigger. Anyway by far the easiest shrimp I have done, 16 days or so; no work at all other than food. Small but really cool.


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Postby William » Wed Mar 19, 2008 8:47 pm

If we are going to move the Thor threads to the correct forum, we should also move the Harlequin threads as well ( they are Carideans as well )

I think part of the confusion is the titles of these forums, they are backwards. Carideans are normally considered the "True Shrimp" while Penaeids are normally called Prawns...
Last edited by William on Wed Mar 19, 2008 10:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re:

Postby mpedersen » Wed Mar 19, 2008 9:13 pm

acroporas wrote:If we are going to move the Thor threads to the correct forum, we should also move the Harlequin threads as well ( they are Carideans as well )

I think part of the confusion is the titles of these forums, they are backwards. Carideans are normally considered the "True Shrimp" while Penaeids are normally called Prawns...


AH, that would make a huge difference. John Lauth should weigh in on this one, as he was one of the main folks behind our invertebrate forum organizatin...

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Postby William » Thu Apr 17, 2008 1:01 pm

Bump....

So are we going to take any action on this. IMO, at a minimum we should move the topics to the correct forum?
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Postby mpedersen » Thu Apr 17, 2008 1:16 pm

John?!?!

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Postby BaboonScience » Thu Apr 17, 2008 2:28 pm

Yep, I'm on it.
At the doctors right now. The advantage of wireless.
Will do the corrections when I get home.
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Postby BaboonScience » Thu Apr 17, 2008 8:54 pm

OK, here it is.
Essentially, there are the true shrimp and everything else.
We separated out the commercially important species and probably over generalized all else. I am in the process of cleaning it up, but here is an overview of the shrimps and crabs and their textbook phylogeny.
Crustacea
-Order Decapoda
--Suborder Dendrobranchiata
---Infraorder Penaeidea (True shrimp Penaeus and pelagic shrimp)
--Suborder Pleocyemata
---Infraorder Stenopodidea (Stenopus)
---Infraorder Caridea (Grass, snapping and cleaning shrimp)
---Infraorder Astacidea (crayfish and true lobsters)
---Infraorder Palinura (example spiny and slipper lobsters)
---Infraorder Anomura
----Superfamily Thalassinoidea (example Burrowing shrimp)
----Superfamily Paguroidea (Example stone and king crabs)
----Superfamily Galatheoidea (example porcelain crabs)
----Superfamily Hippoidea (Mole crabs like Emerita sp.
---Infraorder Brachyura
----Section Dromiacea (example
----Section Oxystomata (box crabs)
----Section Oxyrhyncha (example decorator and spider crabs)
----Section Canceridea (example Genus Cancer)
----Section Brachyrhyncha (exaample fiddler crabs & coral gall crabs)
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Re:

Postby William » Thu Apr 17, 2008 10:47 pm

BaboonScience wrote:OK, here it is.
Essentially, there are the true shrimp and everything else.
We separated out the commercially important species and probably over generalized all else. I am in the process of cleaning it up, but here is an overview of the shrimps and crabs and their textbook phylogeny.


---Infraorder Penaeidea (True shrimp Penaeus and pelagic shrimp)
---Infraorder Caridea (Grass, snapping and cleaning shrimp)



As far as the Latin goes there can be no argument. The forums are broken up clearly and logically.

There is also no ambiguity as to where the which species belong: Sexy shrimp and Harlequin shrimp are Carideans. The belong in the caridean forum. I don't think that anyone is arguing about with that.


The topics/posts about those two species (which make 100% of the posts in this forum) belong in the Caridean fourm.

_____________________________________________________

The question at hand, is why did all of the topics about these two species end up in the Penaeid Forum?

IMO The answer is that despite what ever was written in the book that you are using as a reference, calling the Penaeid forum "True Shrimps" is confusing and misleading to many people.

Penaeids are most often called Prawns.
Carideans are most often called Shrimps.

Do a google search for: True Shrimps
Also do a google search for: Prawns, Shrimps

Find those sites addressing the difference between carideans and penaeids and you will find two answers.
1. there is no difference between the terms, or
2. that penaeids are prawns and carideans are True Shrimps.

Really there is no RIGHT or WRONG here. As the definition of those two terms it varies with your geography. In the USA both groups are most commonly called Shrimp. While in the rest of the English Speaking world, Penaeids always called Prawns.

Going the american route and saying that the two terms are interchangeable is completely unuseful. While the international definitions give us a way to easily distinguish the two groups. IMO that alone is reason enough to adopt the international definitions.

I propose that we change the titles of these two forums to the following:

Crustaceans - Prawns
Crustaceans - Caridean Shrimps (minus Lystmata)


I can not think of any reason not to make this change.
1. No one is going to argue that calling Penaeids "prawns" is inacurate. (while in some parts of the world, people would argue that calling Penaeids "shrimp" is inacurate).
2. We remove the term "True shrimps". Since we previously called Penaeids "True Shrimps", using this term for Carideans would cause undue additional confusion.
3. No one is going to argue that calling the Carideans "Caridean Shrimp" is inaccurate or confusing.

I'm not going to be upset if we don't change the common name titles of the forums, after all, there really is no such thing as a "Wrong" common name, if enough people decide to call something something, it has now become a valid common name. That is exactly what the Latin names are for and it is clear in the descriptions what goes where. But I do think that the fact that 100% of the posts in this forum are out of topic, is evidence that renaming this forum is needed.

But I will be upset if we leave the topics about Sexy Shrimp and Harliquine shrimp topics are left in the Penaeid Forum. If we had not already had this discussion, I would just move them myself. As they are just flat out in the wrong forum. But since we are here discussing this, I'll leave it up to Matt or John; I don't want to step on anyones feet.
Last edited by William on Thu Apr 17, 2008 10:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby William » Thu Apr 17, 2008 10:56 pm

PS Alternatively, we could just delete the Penaeid forum, and let any discussions about Penaids live in the "Other" forum.
That would remove the confusion as well.

Although very common in commercial foodfish aquaculture, I can not think of any species that would be described as a Marine Ornamental. Can anyone come up with an example of an Ornamental Penaeid?
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Postby BaboonScience » Fri Apr 18, 2008 12:02 am

Will
You are correct and have brought up several issues.
1. Why are these two articles listed in the Penaeidea shrimp section when the correct section is clearly listed below. Perhaps we have not ordered the sections clearly enough? Clearly, the correct section is listed with common and scientific names Two sections below.
2. The worldwide differences in common names leads to confusion. This is why we have tried to stick to scientific forum where possible. Case in point is the classification of Penaeidea shrimp. Keep in mind that there is a difference between the science text referring to "true shrimp" and the common terms prawn and shrimp for table food. This is where I have a problem with references to google. The common gets stuck at the top of the list right or wrong. That said, I only find solid reference to Penaeidea at "True Shrimp" in about half of my more recent texts. Perhaps we should just stick to the science and avoid confusing common names except for examples.
In addition, not all Penaeidea are bottom dwelling prawns/shrimp. There are a fair number of pelagic Penaeidea as well.
3: Matt and I discussed the possibility of this sort of confusion when I put the Invert sections together. These groupings are subject to refinement. There is clear evidence that the crustacean groupings may be ambiguous. As such I will attempt to refine them and run it past Matt for approval.
4. Although there are probably few ornamental Penaeidea even in the pelagic genera, records of their captive production will benefit this community. As such, I would welcome rather than discourage these breeders to report on these forums. In addition, the "other" forum is intended for invert phyla that are not included in the more specific sections. I am more in favor of tweaking the titles a bit.
5. I will move the threads to the correct sections. For some reason, I missed this thread and the positioning of the other threads. Don't be too offended however :roll: at least they posted in a shrimp forum! :lol:

BTW, I just caught this today. Give me at least till tomorrow to work on the restructuring, Please.
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Postby BaboonScience » Sat Apr 19, 2008 12:20 am

Matt
I was thinking. We have a fairly active group with the cleaner shrimp. I hate to see these threads get lost in that forum. Perhaps we should split the harlequin and sexy shrimp out. Or place them with the snapping and grass shrimp as "all other caridae", which may be better. Really, the grass shrimp should be placed with the cleaner shrimp.
Still working on this, but I do not want to move anything until I figure out a better ordering while still maintaining phylongeny.
More later.
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Re:

Postby William » Sat Apr 19, 2008 11:20 am

BaboonScience wrote:place them with the snapping and grass shrimp as "all other caridae", which may be better.


That seems the logical choice to me.
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Postby BaboonScience » Sat Apr 19, 2008 11:37 am

I have this restructured.
Running it by the others.
FuEL, Matt, check your email.
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Postby mpedersen » Sun Apr 20, 2008 11:13 pm

Just got to the email...will check it out!
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Postby mpedersen » Mon Apr 21, 2008 1:20 am

After further review, In looking at all the shrimp forums, it seems to me that we might be best served with ONE forum for ALL shrimp??? We should have multiple "sticky" how-to's on the popular species / groups i.e. Peppermints, Cleaners, Boxing/Coral Bandeds, Pistols, Sexy's etc...

What do you guys all think?

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Postby BaboonScience » Mon Apr 21, 2008 2:03 am

Without the ability to sub-form, that is going to get real messy.
I am not enthusiastic about it but let me sleep on it.
The mods that I sent to you (Last email) should make some sense and be a good corrective measure.
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Re:

Postby mpedersen » Mon Apr 21, 2008 2:06 am

BaboonScience wrote:Without the ability to sub-form, that is going to get real messy.
I am not enthusiastic about it but let me sleep on it.
The mods that I sent to you (Last email) should make some sense and be a good corrective measure.


Cool. It's just an alternate route to consider which I myself am not going one way or the other at this point. Your mods are for the most part in place...take a look and send any revisions to the current as needed (and reminder, the new Lobster forum is in place).

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Postby BaboonScience » Mon Apr 21, 2008 11:06 am

The Caridaen Shrimp posts have all been moved to the proper Forum.
Thanks for pointing this oversight.
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