Breaking up this group

Breaking up this group

Postby mpedersen » Mon Mar 12, 2007 2:23 am

Christian and perhaps other folks have suggest that this particular grouping of fish isn't really appropriate (I have the impression that they're all basically the same when it comes to breeding & rearing, but it sounds like that may be an incorrect assumption).

So Christian, you have my attention, how should this group be split up?

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Postby Clownfish75 » Mon Mar 12, 2007 3:05 am

HI Matt

PErsonally i think Dottybacks (including green eel bleeny things, since they are dottybacks), Round heads (assessors and marine bettas) and then grammas (perhaps gramma, lipogramma and lipropoma?)

If your worried about forum multiplication things like wrasses could go to one, i dont know to many people who breed any wrasse letalone defining the sort. just ideas.

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Postby Clownfish75 » Mon Mar 12, 2007 3:08 am

I surpose the why is appropriate.

Dottybacks (egg ball spawned in one hit, bacterial infection of larvae, super fast growth on rotifers)

GRammas (egg ball made with secondary medium (algae filter wool), spawned daily, larvae grow slower and dont seem to have bacterial probs.

Round Heads, i know bugger all about, pairing of bettas is a unique ability. Assessors who knows how they breed!!!

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Postby mpedersen » Mon Mar 12, 2007 3:13 am

Interesting grouping. I'm willing to go that route unless anyone objects in the next 24/48 hours or whenever I get back to it ;)

In doing some of my divisions, I did make some arbitary choices (i.e. in the case of dividing up the wrasses). In the case of the wrasses in particular, I tried to segment out those species which are reef safe specifically because these are more often kept, becoming all the rage here in the US, and frankly more likely to be spawned because of their popularity AND small size. You raise a good point that truthfully, they might all just be better off rolled into one forum - I basically suspect that someone breeding "Hebriacum" or "Paddlefin" wrasses is going to be unlikely, and if they ARE, what is learned there might be relevant to the "Dwarf Wrasses" as well.

The same type of relatively arbitrary division was made in the Angelfish forums, where I have Centropyge split out (primarily because we are now seeing these regularly produced by Frank B at RTC), and split out the Genicanthus due to their uniquely different dietary/feeding habits + moderate size + uniquely sexually dichromatic traits; and then just lumped everything else into one. Again, not sure if that was the BEST route to take or not.

I'm still really up in the air on the "Green Wolf Eel" because in reality, the larvae are SO large that while it is a "Dottyback", it's totally different from most of them, much in the same way that the genus Pterapogon (including P. mirifica and kaudernii) are so unique among the clownfish. I'm very inclined to keep the RARE direct-development marine fish in their own forums. CRAP, what about TOADFISH? I totally overlooked them and in reality, they're supposedly pretty EASY to breed and rear!

Thoughts and comments as always are welcome.

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Postby Peter Schmiedel » Mon Mar 12, 2007 4:34 am

Matt, Christian,

why splitting Pseudochromis and Grammas? Both are cave breaders and have the same requirements.

Liopropoma is btw a pelagic spawner and does therefore not follow the same breeding requirements.


Of course Accessor should be with the rest of the family
Take care
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Postby Clownfish75 » Mon Mar 12, 2007 5:30 am

the only other reason i could think fo that spliting isnt so bad, is that the grouping of grammas and dottybacks is probably one of the most likely to have posts in it vs many of the others, seemed that 2 of the most likely postable species are together.

Just htink it would be clearer, if your searching for info on grammas you dont have to wade through inof on dottybacks.

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Re:

Postby mpedersen » Mon Mar 12, 2007 10:23 am

Peter Schmiedel wrote:Matt, Christian,
Liopropoma is btw a pelagic spawner and does therefore not follow the same breeding requirements.


I did not know that, and in fact would have assumed some sort of benthic / demersal spawning pattern like it's relatives!

Of course Accessor should be with the rest of the family


So Accessors and Comets should get their own forum, whereas Dottybacks/Grammas/Psuedochromids should stay together? Peter, could you give us a quick example of how you'd re-organize the fish covered in these groups?

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Postby aomont » Mon Mar 12, 2007 7:43 pm

Matt, Liopropoma should be left out of this. They´re Serranids and should be kept with the groupers for a while.
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Postby mpedersen » Tue Mar 13, 2007 7:31 pm

What about Serranus (i.e. Tobacco Bass)? They just don't seem like they'd be even in the same ballpark as something like Miniatus Groupers or the Jewfish...

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the best way to break these out.

Groupers - large group including larger predatory (piscivorous) groups such as Cephalopholis, Cromileptes (Panther Grouper), as well as smaller groupers (Basslets?) like Liopropoma and Serranus (i.e. Chalk Bass, Tobacco Bass etc..? Are ALL of these fish which share the same spawning characteristics?

Grammas - For lack of a better term, simply the genus Gramma (any others?) I kinda agree with Peter...it was my understanding that spawning and pairing are basically the same within this group.

Dottbacks - the genus Psuedochromis

The "Green Wolf Eel Blenny" - yes, technically a Pseudochromid but unique among the group with direct-development.

Round Heads - Marine Betta, Assesors, anything else in this group? I thought that these were also cave spawners, basically much like the Dottybacks and Grammas, thus lumped them into this forum...

Not sold on the split yet because I'm still not sold on any particular re-grouping.

HMMMM.

Gonna have to convince me, please post your alternate groupings with explanations (and if you did so already, please try to make the case again...I have a lot on my mind ;) )

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Postby Clownfish75 » Tue Mar 13, 2007 8:31 pm

Ok since this issue isnt getting any easier to define.

What is the initial decision for any seperation? Is it breeding style? family? genus?

could post counts be an issue in certain forums?

Personally i dont think round heads should be in with dottybacks and grammas

but the combo of dottys and grammas isnt so bad, and to be honest no particular mix is bad, perhaps we should leave it as is and see if trafic is an issue for a forum more likely to get traffic?

i only suspect that if the triffic is high something like round heads will get los tin the dottyback questions? does that make sense?

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Postby Clownfish75 » Tue Mar 13, 2007 8:33 pm

perhaps lipropoma should be with anthias, they are both mini groupers arent they? along with hamlets and tobacco bass (i dont know anythign about hte last 2, never seen one, aside from a book

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Postby mpedersen » Tue Mar 13, 2007 9:09 pm

Well, maybe things will just stay as they are for now...

In a nutshell, for the most part I stuck with groupings by family. I broke out genera from a family if there was a known valid reason for doing so (i.e. with Genicanthus, the only sexually dichromatic group of Angelfish as far as I am aware), or with the case of the "Clownfish" which are indeed members of Pomacentridae, yet are distinctly unique from the rest of the genera in that family, or like the Bangaii's, one of only 4 species of Cardinalfish that have direct development in their larvae.

I kinda followed the groups used at Dr. Foster & Smith's website, www.liveaquaria.com, as a model for how things might best compromise between not listing every group by family, yet not lumping everything into one giant forum.

I sat down and looked at the Groupers on Wet Web Media...kinda got my head around things a bit better perhaps.

This is a tough one to figure out. It's kinda like the arbitrary division between "reef safe wrasses" vs. "larger wrasses". What we kinda have here is "Smaller Groupers/Basses" and "Larger Groupers/Basses". There's a whole slew of fish that could kinda fall into either...i.e. where do Hamlets go? We also techincally have Anthias broken out as well.

I'm therefore inclined to keep the current divisions based not on taxonomy alone, but rather on similarities and differences in the general size, nature, and reproductive issues. I kinda think that Hamlets could have their own group (due to being simultaneous hermaphrodites), and there are possibly other bass groups that should be broken out.

Still in a holding pattern, and I'm relying on those of you who understand the reproductive strategies of each genus/family of "Basses / Groupers" to let me know what perhaps makes the most sense.

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Postby aomont » Tue Mar 13, 2007 9:24 pm

Matt, would this be a case we must split/merge now or never ?
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Postby mpedersen » Tue Mar 13, 2007 10:40 pm

Easier now, but can be done anytime...problem is moving posts from one forum to another following a split (so they make sense)

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Postby mpedersen » Fri Mar 16, 2007 1:50 am

With the recent information that ASSESSORS are mouthbrooders, I think it may be worthwhile to split them off, so once again I find myself kinda leaning towards a split of sorts. My issue is what to do with fish like the Marine Betta and the various "Wrasse Bass" type species that are relatively common in the hobby (i.e. Liopropoma sp.).

It seems that Marine Bettas spawn an egg ball, much like the Pseudochromids, whereas their closest ornamental relatives, the Assesors, are mouthbrooders. And then there's the "basslets" of the "wrasse bass" types, the Liopropoma sp. (i.e. the Swissguard Basslet) which I would've thought were like Royal Grammas (which are like Pseudochromis) and yet apparently Liopropoma are pelagic egg scatters?

The more and more I look into this, the more and more I see there's a broad group of fish mashed together moreso on the basis of "naming", "taxonomy" and "aquarium behavioral characteristics" moreso than reproductive similarities within the group. We can definitely still handle these in one forum, but one of my main goals was to break the fish down into groups of reproductively similar fish within their taxonomic group (i.e. thus why certain families have individual species or subgroups).

Thoughts? I'd like to get this one cleared out and decided in the next few days so I can move on ;)

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Postby aomont » Fri Mar 16, 2007 10:21 am

I vote for pseudochromis + gramma, Plesiopids, and Liopropoma elsewhere (serranids ? anthias under smaller groupers ?).
My first split was "with parental care" x "without parental care", no matter if it´s mouthbrooding or nest guarding/building, then putting them appart by family or habit similarities.

I think larvae needs should be the way to go but as long as many haven´t been raised it´s not a validy criteria.

Talking about liopropoma, I just think they are too different from the others, even serranids. Have you seen a Liopropoma larvae ? :D But I still don´t think we should have a Lipropoma forum as the traffic will be so low for so long that it will be better in a joined forum to give us the feel that every forum is highly visited.

If we keep splitting that far we will end up with a forum to each genera (at least)

By the way, here is a Liopoproma larvae Image Image
;)

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Postby mpedersen » Sat Mar 17, 2007 4:27 am

Anderson. WOW. I've never seen that. There goes my thoughts of breeding L. swalesi!

HMM.

OK, so Pseudochromis (aka. Dottybacks) and Gramma (aka. "Basslets" but for clarity's sake should be referred to as "Grammas") is one forum.

Anthias have their own forum and I think that should stay put.

Plesiopids...are those the roundheads? I kinda think that IF Assesors are Mouthbrooders, whereas Comets are not, that would mean 2 groups should be implemented. Liopropoma could be mentioned in the catch-all grouper category.

Larval needs, breeding methods/habits, all of those things are what helped break out some individual groups in the past. I.e., if there are distinct reasons to break out a genus (i.e. Assesors being mouthbrooders while other roundheads are not), well then there's a strong case to be made for separation based on how I originally tried to group everything.

Anyone else care to weigh in (again!)?

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Postby mpedersen » Sun Jan 20, 2008 11:43 pm

So, after reviewing all these groups, I have renewed interest in considering a reorg, probably splitting out Comets (Marine Bettas) into their own forum. Same for Assesors and Grammas. Thoughts?

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Re:

Postby aomont » Mon Jan 21, 2008 8:10 pm

I still think we can keep pseudochromis + gramma; roundheads (Plesiopids); and take Liopoproma to serranids. We can have more than one overview in the same forum if the differences are larger than we´d like (pseudochromis X gramma; assessors X comets) and keep the forums highly visited.
Anderson.
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Re:

Postby mpedersen » Mon Jan 21, 2008 10:16 pm

aomont wrote:I still think we can keep pseudochromis + gramma; roundheads (Plesiopids); and take Liopoproma to serranids. We can have more than one overview in the same forum if the differences are larger than we´d like (pseudochromis X gramma; assessors X comets) and keep the forums highly visited.
Anderson.


My main reason for busting ALL of these up is that all of them are very different in spawning techniques etc...i.e. Assesors are Mouthbrooders, Grammas spawn and hatch daily, Pseudos and Comets are actually probably the more similar two, and Liopropoma are pelagic spawners. From a breeding standpoint, these are all very different groups in the end, and frankly I'm not so sure how appropriate Liopropoma are in with Serranids...based on what we know about the spawning and larval aspects of Liopropoma...

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Re:

Postby KathyL » Tue Jan 22, 2008 9:18 pm

mpedersen wrote:Interesting grouping. ...it's totally different from most of them, much in the same way that the genus Pterapogon (including P. mirifica and kaudernii) are so unique among the clownfish. ...
Matt


Pterapogon are considered clownfish? :shock:
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Postby mpedersen » Sun Feb 03, 2008 6:00 pm

Well guys, after serious thought, the more and more I look at this group the more and more it makes sense to break it up. It's in the works. Here's what I have so far:

Dottybacks - The Green Wolf Eel Blenny - this forum was formerly "Blennies - The Green Wolf Eel Blenny" but that's truly a misnomer. The revision of the forum name reflects the biological reality that the Green Wolf Eel is basically a big Pseudochromid...

Dottybacks / Pseudochromids - this puts this group of fish where it belongs...they're all similar.

Assessors - Frankly, even if closely related to the Comets / Roundheads, I have a big issue keeping these fish in with the basslets and comets etc. The truth, from a breeder's standpoint, is that amongst all these fish, Assessors are unique in being more haremic and specifically paternal mouthbrooders. Because of these distinctions, they truly do deserve their own forum, at least separate from grammas, reef basslets, pseudochromids and such..

Basslets - Grammas
Basslets - Pelagic Spawners

The Original Basslet forum will remain the forum for Gramma and the closely associated Lipogramma. Honoring the close relation, I'm going to split out Liopropoma, Serranus and other pelagic spawning Basslets into their own forum, as there is truly something very unqiue and distictively different when we talk about nest-building demersal spawners that practice parental care, vs. daily broadcast spawners producing pelagic eggs.

Comets? Well, I think the Marine Betta may just get it's own forum. I talk about it as a unique "Group". From a breeding standpoint, is is perhaps most aligned with the Dottybacks / Pseudochromids, but truthfully this is one of those special fish like the Banggai or Green Wolf Eel that perhaps deserves its own forum?! Perhaps just because I really don't want to wedge it in within the Assessor forum!!!

Feel free to add on any thoughts, this is a painfully slow process due to the way PHPBB allows me to administrate the changes!!!

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Postby danch » Sun Feb 03, 2008 8:10 pm

Matt, somewhere in the old forum I had a Comet overview started that never got stickied. I can't find it anymore - is it still out there lost in the ether?
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Postby mpedersen » Sun Feb 03, 2008 11:56 pm

Hey Dan, it's either in the comet group or in the Assessor group - there was an overview for "both" groups, but obviously we'll need to break that apart (wouldn't have made sense to treat mouthbrooders and egg nest spawners as similar from a breeding standpoint, even if they are closely related)

I'll dig up the links to all the new forums and post them in a sec.

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Postby mpedersen » Sun Feb 03, 2008 11:59 pm

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