Problems with P.fridmani eggs

Re: Problems with P.fridmani eggs

Postby Luis A M » Fri Sep 27, 2013 3:32 pm

I didn´t pull the following spawn of this pair,as all efforts were focused on the larvae.
But then something weird happened;the spawn did not vanish at day 2-3 as it always does.Day 4 and it was still there,looking good.Pulled for checking,most of the embryos were alive and ready to hatch. :shock:
If I should rest on my previous experience,it was so obvious that bacteria were killing the eggs and AI plus energic treatment was necessary to save them.How come things were different this time?
Do natural cycles took care of the nasty germs?
Are the fish progressively developing some kind of immunity against that?.
So I put the eggs in the tumbler,giving the previous treatment,except for the antibiotics,which were ommited.They hatched shortly later,in the 5th night. 8)
Some of the eggs remained unhatched,but I removed the tumbler,because the flow was too harsh on the larvae.The egg ball was dropped in another BRT and some more larvae hatched,even without tumbling.
Regarding the older batch,now 7 DAH,they are growing well,without major losses.
All in all,dotties seem prolific and not particularly hard to raise,no wonder commercial hatcheries chose to produce them. :wink:
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Re: Problems with P.fridmani eggs

Postby Luis A M » Wed Oct 09, 2013 1:09 am

The larvae were growing uneventfully until 14DPH,when 4 were found dead.And 5 more the following day.A bacterial issue was suspected and indeed,the problem was solved with antibiotic treatment.
They are now 18 DPH,very large and active. 8)
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Re: Problems with P.fridmani eggs

Postby Luis A M » Wed Oct 09, 2013 1:46 pm

19 DPH.It might be my imagination,but I think I see a very faint red shade developing?. :?
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Re: Problems with P.fridmani eggs

Postby Luis A M » Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:31 pm

28 DPH and 3 have settled! :D
No colour change so far,they remain a slight reddish brown.Starting with TDO.
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Re: Problems with P.fridmani eggs

Postby swamp.tide » Fri Oct 18, 2013 11:15 pm

Luis,

I finally got to your thread. I also have had and still have problems with egg masses that don't hatch. From my experience, it seems to be related to the pairs' experience.

Young and small females tend to lay low-quality eggs, but this seems to improve with time and experience. Are your pairs small by any chance?

Good luck with the cultures.

Abraços
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Re: Problems with P.fridmani eggs

Postby Luis A M » Sat Oct 19, 2013 2:21 pm

Oi Miguel!
Nice to have a dotty expert chime in!
Yes,pairs are young.But if you read the thread,you´ll see that for some reason,fertile eggs died at some time during incubation,sometimes soon before hatching.Perhaps this is a bacterial issue
This seems to happen to many of the would be orchid dotty breeders.Hatching the eggs is the bottleneck,since once hatched,larvae are large,strong and easy to raise.
I had 4 dead today.META stress,I wonder
But some more have settled.And some are developing the purple colour .Long larvae,15mm TL.
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Re: Problems with P.fridmani eggs

Postby swamp.tide » Sat Oct 19, 2013 3:49 pm

Ola Luis!

I agree 100%, hatching is probably the main bottleneck. However, I do not believe that this is bacterial related, as I treat all my eggs masses with formalin (1.5 mL L-1).

But it is something that requires investigation. I do know that my hatch rates severely decrease if my nitrate is above 10 mg L-1. Do you keep that under control?

Abraços,
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Re: Problems with P.fridmani eggs

Postby Luis A M » Mon Oct 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Hatching the eggs is the bottleneck,since once hatched,larvae are large,strong and easy to raise.

"A man is slave of his words and master of his silence"
Did I say that?.Shame on me!. These fish are NOT easy to raise and hatching isn´t the only bottleneck.
Making it across meta seems an unsurmountable obstacle;they die suddenly in the process.
I found one dying shocked in the afternoon,other than that,all die during the night,typically,the larger and nicer post larvae.Twelve were DOA in the morning
I reduced the bbs offer by 25% and tried alternative foods (Cyclopeeze,frozen copepods) but I don´t think they´re taking them.Last night 4 more were found dead.
I faced this same problem of larvae dying suddenly around meta time some years ago,when I started raising damsel larvae.Only that damsels have two bottlenecks,first feeding and meta.While orchids present them at hatching and meta.
Dreaded DOA syndrome seems to be related to BBS feeding,either too much or lack of HUFA.
To solve this I must enrich artemia or set mega cultures of copepods...
As Martin M.says:BUMMER!
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Re: Problems with P.fridmani eggs

Postby Luis A M » Tue Oct 22, 2013 3:00 pm

And we keep heading to disaster,DOA is a horrible game :evil:
BBS was reduced to 50% and still 7 died overnight.Some are completely post META,17 mm TL,purple and with the typical head mark.
Very few remain :( I will be replacing bbs with 24hrs enriched with Roti-green. :?
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Re: Problems with P.fridmani eggs

Postby swamp.tide » Wed Oct 23, 2013 8:34 pm

Luis,

Keep going, it gets better from batch to another.

However, I must say that I barely get any fish trough meta without enriching the bbs. I use Algamac, it works pretty well.

I also try to feed them with all kinds of "dead feed" from 10 days before meta onwards. They'll eventually get used to it and eat it, increasing significantly their chances of surviving meta.

Hope it helps. Abraços,
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Re: Problems with P.fridmani eggs

Postby Luis A M » Thu Oct 24, 2013 3:41 pm

Thanks Miguel for the encouragement! :)
Indeed,enriching artemia seems extremely important with this species.We have a wealth of data in this forum and one can see how people failed again and again when that was not done.I was too self confident on my skills,thought that giving some copepods could avoid the issues of a diet consisting mostly of NHBBS.
Seven more died and only the smallest larva survives;perhaps only to grow and then die :evil: I don´t know if a diet change at this time could change it´s fate,or some irreversible (liver?) damage has ocurred.
Care to describe your protocol with Algamac?.Obrigado!.
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Re: Problems with P.fridmani eggs

Postby Luis A M » Fri Oct 25, 2013 7:02 pm

Damsel larvae die before or during meta,but once they´re fully coloured,you can call them safe.
Not so with orchid dotties,they keep dying aftr meta is completed :evil:
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Re: Problems with P.fridmani eggs

Postby swamp.tide » Sat Oct 26, 2013 1:02 pm

Luis,

I usually get 0,4 g of Algamac 3050 and blend it for 2 mins in 500 mL of saltwater + 500 mL of freshwater. Then I immediately filter 30h-old artemia instar and add them to that solution for 6h. Then I drain it all out and feed it to the larvae.

Regarding death after meta: in my experience, that's much related to nutritional issues. In my cultures where larvae were not exposed to feeds, they tend to die a little after meta. When they are exposed, I get zero deaths after meta. When they get coloured, that's my assurance that I'll get no more deaths.

Abrazos!
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Re: Problems with P.fridmani eggs

Postby Luis A M » Sat Oct 26, 2013 1:21 pm

Obrigado pela ajuda! :D
The last survivor keeps fighting at 36 DPH.Settling but still not taking colour. :roll: Feeding everything and the kitchen sink,but NOT bs! :wink:
abraços tambem pra VC!
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Re: Problems with P.fridmani eggs

Postby Luis A M » Sun Oct 27, 2013 3:14 pm

Not one but now TWO survivors at 37 DPH! :D There was one hidden under the bulkhead.
Perhaps if kept sans bs,they could make it?. :?
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Re: Problems with P.fridmani eggs

Postby Luis A M » Wed Oct 30, 2013 1:39 pm

40dph,and the last one went thru meta. 8)
So I have 2 survivors and I am confident that they will make it,if I refrain from offering bbs. :?
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Re: Problems with P.fridmani eggs

Postby swamp.tide » Thu Oct 31, 2013 9:27 pm

Luis,

Two survivors is two more than I had at my first try. ;)

Next time you'll get 10, then 30, then 100.
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Re: Problems with P.fridmani eggs

Postby Luis A M » Mon Nov 04, 2013 3:03 pm

Thanks.
And they finally made it! :D The two juveniles were moved to grow out at 44 days.A diet change was all what was needed! :shock:
One is larger and dominant.They will be a mated pair when they grow up. 8)
Which means I could breed & raise a new MO fish species,#21! :D
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Re: Problems with P.fridmani eggs

Postby Luis A M » Mon Nov 04, 2013 5:52 pm

Some very bad pictures: :oops:
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Re: Problems with P.fridmani eggs

Postby swamp.tide » Mon Nov 04, 2013 6:55 pm

Hooray!
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Re: Problems with P.fridmani eggs

Postby Luis A M » Fri Nov 08, 2013 3:28 pm

swamp.tide wrote:Hooray!

8) Yes,it feels great when something ends happily,for a change... :roll:
The two fish take Otohime.I´m still pampering them with adult copepods and Nutramar Ova.I suspect that if I give bbs at this time,it wouldn´t hurt.But I won´t do it :wink:
Their parents spawned and the eggball was left at their care.I planned to pull it on the 5th night,but alas,they hatched in the tank in the 4th night! :x
But I could siphon out a good number of them,and they are doing well so far.I plan to use enriched bs this time.Not sure though if I should give nhbbs for some days or start straight with the larger instar 2... :?
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Re: Problems with P.fridmani eggs

Postby Luis A M » Mon Nov 11, 2013 5:39 pm

Video taken when they were moved:
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Re: Problems with P.fridmani eggs

Postby Luis A M » Wed Nov 13, 2013 3:43 pm

"swamp.tide"]Luis,

Keep going, it gets better from batch to another.



Indeed,for some reason,things are improving,at least with my better pair.
The egg ball remained,and I planned to pull it in the 5th night.
But they hatched in the 4th,lots of larvae in the parent´s tank! :shock: ( unless I had missed the spawning day).
I could siphon them out and raising proceeded uneventfully. 8)
At 11 DPH larvae are large and I am starting with Algamac enriched bs.Let´s see how it goes...
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Re: Problems with P.fridmani eggs

Postby Luis A M » Sat Nov 16, 2013 6:22 pm

And again a good lasting ball.Checked on 4th night and saw lots of live embryos,well developed,though the yolk sac was still a bit large :?
Put them in the tumbler but they didn´t hatch.
And following night (the 5th) I had a large hatch! :D
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Re: Problems with P.fridmani eggs

Postby Derwins » Mon Nov 18, 2013 3:33 am

congrats !!
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