C. Flavissima-vroliki hybrid X C. Eibli Breeding Log

[ncooke]

Hi Everyone,

This is my first post. I've been reading MOFIB for a while and have been keeping marine fish and reef tanks years. This will be a log of my attempt to breed dwarf angelfish. Specifically, my attempt at keeping a small harem and breeding a hybrid.

Ordered one C. Flavissima x C. Vroliki (Half black-Lemonpeel Hybrid) and 2 C. Eibli dwarf angelfish from Live Aquaria on 9/26/14. I asked for the largest Half black-Lemonpeel they had and the two smallest Red Stripes they had in stock.

In the meantime, I set up the following system:

Tank: 20 Gal long
Filtration: Eshopps PSK-75H hang on back skimmer
Temp: 81-82
Water movement: medium powerhead
Lighting: T5 lights- 8 hrs Day- 16 hrs Night schedule
Substrate: bare bottom
Shelter: several different sizes of PVC pipe

Arrival: Fish arrived at 9:45am on 9/30/14. Slowly acclimated them to the tank with the lights out on the tank and only dim lightly in the room the tank is in. All three were introduced to the tank at the same time.

I didn't notice any significant aggression towards each other. All appear to be juveniles through (or female). And, unfortunately, they are all basically the same size.

Since I am a bit behind I will break this up into a few posts....

Ned

[ncooke]

10/25/14- After reading some posts I changed the lighting schedule to 12 hrs day/12 hrs night.

Feeding: Feeding three times daily. Usually feeding New Life Spectrum (NLS), Tetra Marine Flakes, and either Rod's or a mix of Hikari Mysis Shrimp and Hikari Spirulina Mysis Shrimp. Two to three times per week I'll put a 2 in x 2 in piece of Sally's Seaweed Salad (Green Marine Algae) in as a snack.

Everyone is still getting along. No severe aggression. Any time there is aggression the submissive fish is able to run to cover in the PVC pipe in the tank. After a few seconds the aggressor calms down and the submissive fish comes back out into the open. It's talked about a lot but I really think that having enough hiding spaces for the fish is a major point towards keeping/forming a pair or harem.

If I get a chance in the next day or two I'll take a video of the harem and I'll post it on YouTube.

Ned

[Luis A M]

Welcome Ned to MOFIB!
Looks like you´re aiming high in the breeding game! Centropyge is somehow the "holy grial"and many well seasoned and funded breeders failed with them.But now that we have the proper food and knowledge,it is only a matter of time to crack them.Butterflies and surgeons are more difficult after all.
I am afraid that starting with a hybrid parent is not a good idea If things go wrong you won´t know what to blame:your protocol or the hybrid condition.
And you are not using a sump?.How will you collect the eggs?
Good luck,take pics and keep us posted!

[ncooke]

11/6/14

Hi Luis,

Thanks! Yes, I'm shooting high with breeding centropyge. One step at a time though. First, they have to start spawning!

For the past 5 weeks I've been doing a 10% water change weekly- vacuuming up anything I can from the bottom of the tank. The skimmer has also been pulling out a lot and is more than enough for the tank, even with the heavier feeding. So far, the ammonia, nitrates, and nitrites are all right near 0.

The hybrid is a good point. I am coming at it from two different angles. One, Sanjay had success breeding his Percula female with her Proton "hybrid" offspring. Interesting thread to read. The thought being that different species will produce sterile offspring. Since the Proton is able to reproduce the thought is that they are in fact sub species and that the "hybrids" are able to reproduce. I am hypothesizing that the same is true in the centropyge family. Fingers crossed. Secondly, that is why I went with a harem. If the Flavissima/Vrokliki hybrid is sterile I may still be able to get fertilized eggs from the two Eibli in the tank.

I read mpetersen's thread on breeding Argi. I'm planning on collecting the eggs and moving them to a different tank just like he did. The lights go off right around 9:30pm. I should be able to check the tank 30-60 minutes after the lights go out to see if there are any eggs along the edges of the tank.

[ncooke]

11/7/14

5 week update: All fish are eating well. Most days they are getting fed 3 times/day with a first feeding sometime around 3-4pm in the afternoon. With two more before lights out at 9:30pm.

To help me with abbreviating some of the fish names:
C. Flavissima-C. Vroliki hybrid: Common name, Half Black Lemonpeel: HBL
C. Eibli: Common name, Red Stripe: RSM (Male)
C. Eibli: Common name, Red Stripe: RSF (Female)

One of the Red Stripes has/is definitely becoming the male in the tank, RSM. I would guess the RSM has grown by at least 20% in the last 5 weeks. His coloring has also changed in comparison to RSF. To start with RSM's color has darkened- become more vibrant. His scribbled lines have definitely darkened and widened. In addition, anywhere he has orange on his body the orange is more pronounced and darker. The orange on his dorsal, anal, and ventral fin has become much more filled out. The orange on the front part of his belly has become darker and richer too. Lastly, the yellow, behind the orange, on his ventral and anal fins has become richer in color as well. Quite amazing really, 5 weeks ago they looked the same, now RSM and RSF are easily identifiable. In addition, RSM has a little black on the back part of his anal fin. If you search Google you will run across photos showing this from time to time. It's like the black of the tail bled down into the anal fin. This was great at first because it helped me to identify the two Red Stripes.

RSF has probably grown by 10% in the last 5 weeks. The pecking order in the tank has definitely become RSM, RSF, HBL. From my observation I would say that RSF's color is a little bit faded. Almost muted a little bit. The scribbled lines are a bit thinner as less colorful than when I first put RSF in the tank. The yellow and orange is also faded.

HBL looks fine. Just as fat as the others. All of them with their eating are nice and full bodied. HBL has not grown at all. The exact same size as when I put her in the tank. No torn fins, just keeps an eye out for RSM- turns the other way if they run into each other in a PVC pipe. RSM and HBL interestingly are the two most dominant when it comes to eating the seaweed I put in the tank as a treat. They never leave it and RSF has to eat pieces as they are torn off. But, with no seaweed in the tank RSF resumes her roll as the dominant female.

I will try to get a YouTube video posted in the next day or two. Hopefully it will show some of the color differences.

Oh, one more thing. I wasn't able to feed the other day, was busy during the evening, and I definitely noticed an uptick in aggression when I got around to feeding them the following day. It was like they were grumpy from being hungry. Once I had fed them a couple of times you could see them calm down and go back to the normal routine. I wonder if consistent feedings multiple times a day can reduce the aggression and increase the likely hood of keeping a pair or harem in a tank???

[Luis A M]

I mentioned the hybrid issue in the sense of "if you´re going to climb the Everest,don´t place more stones in your path". I agree with you,this wouldn´t be a major problem,even sometimes "hybrid vigor"makes things easier.And as you say,even if the hybrid female was sterile,you can still get fertile eggs from the eibli pair.
There are some individual colour/pattern differences in Centropyge,but I don´t know of any showing sexual dimorphism.
Yes,feed them well and often,including vegetable matter,scarce in a newly set up tank.And provide lots of cover in case the male turns aggressive.

[ncooke]

11/16/14

I think, fingers crossed, that I saw some courtship between RSM and RSF last night. They were nuzzling each other and swimming in a circle around each other- no apparent or significant aggression when they were next to each other. Maybe, just maybe, this is a good sign!

All three are still getting along and the pecking order is still the same.

Luis, you mentioned in an earlier post that the food issue is somewhat solved. Were you referring to the broodstock or to the larvae? I have been reading some on rearing larvae and it seems like there are a couple of schools of thought. Any thoughts?

I'm going on vacation in a couple of days so I won't be able to look for any spawnings, etc. BUT, I want to pick out one or two first foods to try with the larvae.

Ned

[Luis A M]

Again,getting many fertile eggs every night is the easy part.Very few people could raise the larvae,feeding wild or cultured (Parvo,Oithona) plankton.
Which were the different schools of thought you ran into?

[Jake Levi]

Any progress/updates on ths?

Fwiw I suggest parvo or acartia naups for the larvae.

[Jake Levi]

Any progress?

Coral magazine has an article on a C.ebli hybrid, a beautiful cross, and very pricey for wild natural ones. A proven Ebli fertile cross. They are online if you don't subscribe.