Breeding Stenopus scutellatus (golden banded boxing shrimp)

Re: Breeding Stenopus scutellatus (golden banded boxing shri

Postby Amie » Tue Feb 04, 2014 5:53 pm

excellent information, thank you.
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Re: Breeding Stenopus scutellatus (golden banded boxing shri

Postby ShannPeach » Wed Feb 05, 2014 1:04 pm

Day 29 pics (these were actually two different larvae, but when I uploaded the images I think they got out of order):
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They were "due" to be in a new stage for those pics...In a few of those pics I swear I see what looks like a six leg (very short/small)...how many legs should I be expecting? I thought it was just five pairs
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Re: Breeding Stenopus scutellatus (golden banded boxing shri

Postby Luis A M » Wed Feb 05, 2014 3:45 pm

Decapods=10 legs :D .So if you are seeing 6 pairs,the 1st one is MP3 and the other 5 pereiopods.
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Re: Breeding Stenopus scutellatus (golden banded boxing shri

Postby ShannPeach » Wed Feb 05, 2014 3:56 pm

That's what I thought...

I thought that the first red appendage is the first of the legs, and the ones before that (clear ones) were mouthparts. Do you see that little bud after the fifth pair of legs I'm talking about? Maybe it is just biramous and looks like a separate leg. Hmmmmm :?
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Re: Breeding Stenopus scutellatus (golden banded boxing shri

Postby Luis A M » Thu Feb 06, 2014 3:26 pm

I see it and it looks like a new pair. :? But only you can be sure playing with the focus of the scope.Maxillipedia (MP) are technically mouth parts but they look and work like legs in larvae.Lysmata,for instance hatch without real legs and swim with the MP 2 and 3.
Spawner says that late Stenopus larvae show the chela (claw) in pp3.
What shape is the telson now?.Do uropods surpass telson or/and it´s spines?.
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Re: Breeding Stenopus scutellatus (golden banded boxing shri

Postby ShannPeach » Thu Feb 06, 2014 3:36 pm

I'm doing a water change tonight and if I have time I will try to look more closely. I didn't get a good image of the telson last time and I don't even remember if I looked all that closely...I'll try to do that as well tonight.

I don't recall seeing anything that looked like a claw, but perhaps I didn't see it because I wasn't really looking for it...did he say when that appears? I may go back through all my images and see if I can spot it. Otherwise, it will be another thing I will look for tonight :)


Can I say that I really don't like larval shrimp legs? Eeesh. Talk about a mess! hahaha
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Re: Breeding Stenopus scutellatus (golden banded boxing shri

Postby ShannPeach » Thu Feb 06, 2014 3:39 pm

I still have at least a couple more weeks though before I can probably consider them "late stage" larvae, so I probably won't see the chela quite yet. Did he mention anything about pleopod development that you can remember?
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Re: Breeding Stenopus scutellatus (golden banded boxing shri

Postby Luis A M » Mon Feb 10, 2014 2:56 pm

No,I don't.Perhaps he is watching and chimes in.
But late zoea should have well developed pleopods.
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Re: Breeding Stenopus scutellatus (golden banded boxing shri

Postby ShannPeach » Tue Feb 11, 2014 12:11 pm

Day 35 yesterday, and it looks like we have a new stage! I have no idea WHAT stage it is, but it's different based on the antenna (at least that's what I think it is) length :D
Image
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The old antenna length (this is a pic of a day 35 larva also):
Image
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Re: Breeding Stenopus scutellatus (golden banded boxing shri

Postby Luis A M » Wed Feb 12, 2014 11:09 pm

Oh yes,Shann,these are developing antennae (A2).I've never seen them.Do they show segments or terminal hairs?
Keep track of the telson,it's shape and size against the uropods.A stage is defined as a clear morphological change after a molt.And watch for pleopod buds,which announce late zoeas!
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Re: Breeding Stenopus scutellatus (golden banded boxing shri

Postby ShannPeach » Thu Feb 13, 2014 9:42 am

They did have a few hairs at the end, but I didn't count them. I didn't see any segmentation either. I got a pic of the tail (finally!) last night of a day 37 larva, but it has the shorter antenna so it's still in the previous stage. I still have 13.

Image
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Re: Breeding Stenopus scutellatus (golden banded boxing shri

Postby Luis A M » Fri Feb 14, 2014 11:17 am

I think this old paper http://decapoda.nhm.org/pdfs/22455/22455.pdf might help us with staging.
It describes the Z1-Z5 stages of S.spinosus,a Mediterranean (temperate) species.While number of stages could be different from those of tropical spp.(as happens with Lysmata seticaudata),the early zoea should be similar.
See that each stage can be defined by the pereiopod count;Z1 shows PP1,Z2 bud of PP2,up to Z5 with the bud of PP5.
And your pic of the antenna,bare with 3 terminal setae matches Z5.
But with some caveats;S.spinosus lacks MP3.So if the smaller mouth part is MP1,there are 2 "leg" pairs:MP2 and PP1.
But our tropical spp (hispidus,scutellatus,cyanoscelis) hatch with 3 pairs of legs.Either they have MP3 and we see MP2,MP3 and PP1;or they hatch more advanced,with PP2,i.e.:MP2,PP1 and PP2.
Not being specialists who dissect the appendix and study the fine details of them,all we can do is keep watching the development of the legs.They start as buds and in following stages they become biramous,then with setae,and finally functional.
S.scutellatus has a shorter larval period,and therefore your chances to make it all the way are stronger.Good luck!
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Re: Breeding Stenopus scutellatus (golden banded boxing shri

Postby Luis A M » Sat Feb 15, 2014 7:09 pm

Forget S.spinosus,I found a brazilian doctoral thesis (R.Gregati,2009) about S.hispidus with descriptions of first nine zoeal stages! 8)
We can use it as a staging key for our tropical Stenopus,most probably they will fit in there.
There are 3 MPs after all,and Z1 hatches with 3 pairs of "legs":MP2,MP3 and PP1.
Buds of the other PPs show as following:
PP2 at Z3
PP3 at Z7
PP4 at Z8
PP5 at Z9
Each stage lasted 4.12 days.
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Re: Breeding Stenopus scutellatus (golden banded boxing shri

Postby ShannPeach » Sun Feb 16, 2014 1:50 am

Luis A M wrote:Forget S.spinosus,I found a brazilian doctoral thesis (R.Gregati,2009) about S.hispidus with descriptions of first nine zoeal stages! 8)
We can use it as a staging key for our tropical Stenopus,most probably they will fit in there.
There are 3 MPs after all,and Z1 hatches with 3 pairs of "legs":MP2,MP3 and PP1.
Buds of the other PPs show as following:
PP2 at Z3
PP3 at Z7
PP4 at Z8
PP5 at Z9
Each stage lasted 4.12 days.



Okay, I'm trying to muddle my way through this. MP=maxilliped? Which is essentially a modified mouthpart, right? But it looks like a leg? Then PP= pereiopod, which are the legs. S. hispidus hatches with three leg-like things: MP2, MP3, and PP1... Can we see mp1? I have gone back and looked at the day 1 pics I have and see four distinct "legs" and something that, to my untrained eye, looks more like a mouthpart than a leg. Are MPs biramous? I feel like since I can't figure out what "leg" is what at hatch, I am totally hopeless at 40 days in! Does this mean that by the time all PPs are developed, I should actually see seven pairs of "legs" (or at least what will look like legs) or do the MP start to look different (less leg-like) later?

My day 39 pics I *think* I see seven pairs of leg-like appendages. So that would suggest that they are at least Z9...

How did you find the thesis? I searched a little bit for it but didnt find it (searching on my phone is a pain!also, please forgive any typos since I am writing this on my phone as well :D) I will try to search a bit more intensively this coming week. Did the thesis say anything about antenna development?
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Re: Breeding Stenopus scutellatus (golden banded boxing shri

Postby ShannPeach » Sun Feb 16, 2014 2:01 am

I went back and read one of your last posts again, and I think you already said that by watching development of the PPs go from bud to biramous we can get a better idea if what is going on with all these crazy legs and mouthparts. So am I correct in assuming then that only the PPs become biramous, and the MPs do not? If so, then I think I have come full circle in my confusion :/

Here is a pic of a day 1:
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If PPs are biramous and MPs are not, then this pic suggests there are at least PP1, 2, and 3? With MP showing as the appendage before the first biramous one? Or is my assumption about what is PP and MP incorrect? Or, are these guys a bit different from S. hispidus right from hatch?
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Re: Breeding Stenopus scutellatus (golden banded boxing shri

Postby Luis A M » Sun Feb 16, 2014 2:59 pm

Shannon,MP1 is shorter and points forward and it is used for grasping and not for swimming,that's why I didn't count it as a "leg".All appendix are biramous (antennae,mouthparts,MPs,PPs,pleopods and uropods).But we can see only the exopodite of MP1.
Not taking MP1 as a leg,yes,you will see up to 7 pairs of legs.
Now that we have a description,we can work a key finding morphological changes that can be seen in the living larva,without the need of tearing it into little pieces. :wink: .BTW this author,as others have done,kept the larvae in 20 ml dishes or Petri dishes,where he could retrieve the molts.A molt presents all the features of the previous stage of the larva,except for the eyes.It is amazing how they survived under such poor conditions.
http://www.ibb.unesp.br/posgrad/teses/z ... regati.pdf
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Re: Breeding Stenopus scutellatus (golden banded boxing shri

Postby Luis A M » Mon Feb 17, 2014 12:29 am

And now that we have a description,it's easy to understand the pictures.The coloured legs are MP2 and MP3.Then come the PPs,I see 4,so it is Z8 8) Focusing where the legs join the body,it's easier to count them.Amazing to see PP3 as such a tiny thing,which will then grow into those large claws! :shock:
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Re: Breeding Stenopus scutellatus (golden banded boxing shri

Postby ShannPeach » Mon Feb 17, 2014 9:14 am

I see five, but I think it's easier to tell with the latest pics from day 30 and 41:
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Still have 13...
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Re: Breeding Stenopus scutellatus (golden banded boxing shri

Postby Luis A M » Mon Feb 17, 2014 12:01 pm

Yes,it could be the 5th PP bud.Which means you've reached Z9,the last described stage.No more legs will show and now you must focus in the development of it,from small bud to biramous bud to setae (hairs) showing to becoming motile (functional).This could define new still undescribed stages.And of course watching for pleopod buds.Uncharted territory :wink:
And if you see some molt drifting around,it could be helpful,too!
Does the telson end in one or two spines?
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Re: Breeding Stenopus scutellatus (golden banded boxing shri

Postby ShannPeach » Mon Feb 17, 2014 12:18 pm

In all of my shrimp larval attempts, only twice have I actually seen a molt floating around...And both times I saw it, went to grab something to collect it, and then never saw it again lol But I will try to keep my eyes open and grab one. Unlikely though!

The telson looked to end in one spine, but it was off center which makes me wonder if there was a second spine that broke off or something...the pic is a few posts back. I will try to get another image or at least a good look at it so I can describe it or draw it or something.

Uncharted territory...it always sounds like so much fun until you're in it and realize you have no clue what's going on! :D So note to self, watch for development of 5th PP, watch for changes in the telson, watch for development of the crazy claw on PP3, and watch for pleopod buds. I think several just molted over the weekend so it will likely be a few days until they molt again...and who knows if they will actually molt to a new stage or just do that mark-time molt thing. One of the thirteen had a messed up tail so I am guessing that one will need to bounce back from that before it molts to a new stage. I want to try to remember to measure them as well since I haven't been doing a great job of actually tracking their size through this.
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Re: Breeding Stenopus scutellatus (golden banded boxing shri

Postby ShannPeach » Wed Feb 19, 2014 9:38 am

Day 43 pics, taken of two different larvae.

The first one:
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The second:
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A dead one:
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I have 12 left of this oldest batch. The tail has that same off-center spine that the previous tail pic shows, so either I somehow caught the same larva or there really is just one spine that is off center. I added in a decent number of Tigriopus copepods along with the enriched bbs last night after the water change.
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Re: Breeding Stenopus scutellatus (golden banded boxing shri

Postby Luis A M » Wed Feb 19, 2014 12:19 pm

Shannon,spectacular pictures,I must print the larval description and match it with them,we could work out a stage key :wink:
You get such fine details that we can count setae as in a camera lucida drawing.Amazing those antennae splitting in two branches!.Are you positive you see 5 PPs after the 2 red MPs?.I can only see 4 :(
Also strange is the lone eccentric spine in the telson,see if that is just an individual oddity.
43 days is further than anybody went,at least in this forums world and time 8)
True, Junda Lin told me that they had raised scutellatus bud couldn't make it with hispidus.But no larval pictures or descriptions were given.It would be interesting to see the later stages :wink:
I think that my last hispidus only reached 40 days,and the shape of telson was like yours.
It is very convenient that the sides of the carapax are transparent and we can see the PP buds thru it! 8)
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Re: Breeding Stenopus scutellatus (golden banded boxing shri

Postby ShannPeach » Wed Feb 19, 2014 1:26 pm

So, in these most recent pics, I agree that we can only see 4 PPs...but I was also having a difficult time getting the "usual" camera angles (some days they just WON'T cooperate :roll: ) It is a bit odd since I swear I have seen 5PPs in some of the day 39/41 pics...

This is the second image of the lopsided tail I have captured. I will try to get more pics of known separate specimens, but it is pure dumb luck that I get them to lay on the slide that way. I see it happen, then the race is on to get some decent pics before they start scooting around on their side :lol: I feel like I am getting better with my pipetting "technique" getting them on the slide, so perhaps I will be able to get at least two specimens to lay like that for pics.

I tried very hard to focus in on the setae of some of the appendages, mostly because you've asked about them in the past :D I thought the split antennae was also interesting, but then couldn't remember if they were like that before, or if it was new...I so rarely can get images from that perspective and didn't make a mental (or physical) note of it. I've been working with four different shrimp species the last couple months, so I feel like I sometimes get my antennae crossed and can't remember one shrimp's new features from another's :lol:

Normally I would wait a couple days until the next water change to get more pics, but I added Tigriopus pods last night and it is making me very nervous (I had nightmares about rogue copepods eating all my shrimp larvae) so I may just pull a few for some pics tonight when I check to make sure they haven't been eaten alive by the Tiggers :shock:

I am sad about the dead one...I could tell that it had just died and it had been in the process of molting. Makes me wonder if it was molting to the next stage when it died and if all the others will die trying as well :cry:
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Re: Breeding Stenopus scutellatus (golden banded boxing shri

Postby ShannPeach » Thu Feb 20, 2014 9:28 am

Okay, got some pics.
Larva #1:
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Larva #2:
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Larva #3:
Image
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One had the lopsided tail, the other two had two spines. Did I somehow manage to get a pic three times of the same larva with the weird tail?? Or is that something several of them have? Who knows.
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Re: Breeding Stenopus scutellatus (golden banded boxing shri

Postby Luis A M » Sat Feb 22, 2014 6:37 pm

I printed the PDF but the pictures don't show well.I wrote to the author,asking for better images.
Anyway,I compared descriptions of Z8 and Z9,with your pics and the number of setae of A1,A2 and uropods,is larger,indicating a later stage (number of setae increases in older larvae).
A2,the scale of Z8-Z9 should have 15-17 setae and your pics show 23-26 and 30.
Uropods:Z8 endop has 13-15 setae exop 16-18.Z9 endop 14-16,exop 18-20.Yours show endops >30-37,28-30 and 31,30
and exop.36,30 and 30.
So you must check for PP buds development and pleopod buds.(Seen in the lateral view)
And it is likely that the antennae start growing now,both branches of A1,and the endop (flagellum) of A2.
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