Breeding Stenopus scutellatus (golden banded boxing shrimp)

Breeding Stenopus scutellatus (golden banded boxing shrimp)

Postby ShannPeach » Wed Jan 08, 2014 11:47 am

I have two pairs of this species, but only one that I do anything with. In the past I've only gotten to day 10-14, IIRC, but I've only tried twice. Each time I've decided that something I was trying DIDN'T work for me or the way I do maintenance. The most recent hatch was on the night of January 6th, 2014 and I used a snagger this time to collect (so I caught a bunch!) I had put a bunch of Apocyclops and Euterpina in the snagger the day before so that way the larvae hopefully were able to have a snack before they were collected.

Yesterday I pulled several for some day 1, Z1 pics. They are currently in a 3L inverted water bottle (this is not ideal sine that is a whole bunch of organisms in a very small amount of water, but I didn't have the space last night to divide them up) with rotifers, Euterpina, Apocyclops and some nhbbs. I am using various live algae to tint the water (this morning I used nanno and chaetoceros). I will likely change the water every day if I can, or every other day at the very least. Anywho, here are the pics!
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This is a very basic question but...can anyone tell me if that dark spot behind the eyes indicates that they are eating? I can tell with Lysmata now, but I am not quite as familiar with this species. :?
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Re: Breeding Stenopus scutellatus (golden banded boxing shri

Postby Luis A M » Wed Jan 08, 2014 10:05 pm

Very good pics,Shannon! 8)
Yes,it seems they are eating.
Perhaps this old thread on S.hispidus could help
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthrea ... s+hispidus
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Re: Breeding Stenopus scutellatus (golden banded boxing shri

Postby ShannPeach » Wed Jan 08, 2014 11:53 pm

Luis A M wrote:Very good pics,Shannon! 8)


Thanks! I love my microscope/camera adapter. I use it nearly every day. I do wish the camera had a lower lens power option, but oh well.

Luis A M wrote:Yes,it seems they are eating.

Whew!

Luis A M wrote:Perhaps this old thread on S.hispidus could help
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthrea ... s+hispidus


It did (and does) help :) I have it bookmarked so I can refer to it. This genus is a bit easier for me to figure out the legs and count them. With Lysmata it seems like they have 10 more legs than they should and they go every which way. :?

Luis, your usual protocol is to use just bbs (sometimes otohime as well) correct? Is that also what you did with the Stenopus or did you try rotifers as well?
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Re: Breeding Stenopus scutellatus (golden banded boxing shri

Postby Luis A M » Thu Jan 09, 2014 1:00 am

Shannon,larval shrimp rearing is tricky and Stenopus is particularly difficult.See that since that old report and references,not much improvements happened.This is the beauty of Sites like this;a bunch of people trying to accomplish something,playing with new ideas and sharing the results.
Yes,Lysmata zoea seem to have twice as much legs!.This is because each leg splits into exopods and endopods very close to the body,that's why it's easier to count endopods,"walking legs";they don't move so fast,they have "elbows"and show colour marks.
Right,BBS and Oto.Other people feed larvae with tiny pieces of squid or other seafood.
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Re: Breeding Stenopus scutellatus (golden banded boxing shri

Postby ShannPeach » Sat Jan 11, 2014 12:34 pm

I pulled a couple for pics yesterday and one of them looked to be mid-molt. Today I will be doing another large water change and will hopefully see some Z2...

Luis: I would read your threads where you referenced the endopods and exopods and would call some walking legs. And you would say "x number of walking legs" and I couldn't tell which was which! But now that you explain it by saying they have "elbows" and have color marks, I think I will finally be able to tell them apart :)

These S, scutellatus so far have been getting rotifers, Apocyclops, Euterpina, and small amounts of nhbbs.
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Re: Breeding Stenopus scutellatus (golden banded boxing shri

Postby ShannPeach » Mon Jan 13, 2014 11:15 am

Here are some day 5, Z2 pics:
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I have been adding in more nhbbs the last day or so than I had in the first 4 days. Still plenty of rots and pods in the containers though.
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Re: Breeding Stenopus scutellatus (golden banded boxing shri

Postby ShannPeach » Wed Jan 15, 2014 8:35 pm

Day 9 today and they got a 100% water change. I added in a decent amount of Euterpina copepods, some nhbbs, and iso and nanno to tint the water.

They are Z3 today! I made it to day 10 before, but never to Z3!

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Re: Breeding Stenopus scutellatus (golden banded boxing shri

Postby ShannPeach » Mon Jan 20, 2014 9:59 am

Did a 100% water change yesterday (day 13) for these and I have 30 left but they seem to be at Z4 most noticeable by the change in the tail.

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Re: Breeding Stenopus scutellatus (golden banded boxing shri

Postby Luis A M » Mon Jan 20, 2014 11:41 am

Going well,Shannon 8) Z4 indeed.
And the pictures are excellent.Are you lighting from underneath,as in a regular compound scope,or from above,or both?.
How many pairs of legs you see?.Are they uniramous or biramous?
S.scutellatus was raised by Junda Lin.Perhaps Andy R."spawner"was already working there at that time. :?
See how far I could go with S.hispidus http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthrea ... opus+larva
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Re: Breeding Stenopus scutellatus (golden banded boxing shri

Postby ShannPeach » Mon Jan 20, 2014 12:34 pm

The lighting is just from underneath. My original light (which was a single LED bulb) burned out, so now I have the microscope sort of rigged on a tupperware container "stand" and use this LED light with multiple bulbs instead. I can't remember the brand off the top of my head, but it is definitely much brighter than the original light and I think that has helped a ton. Occasionally I try to add some light from the top as well, but I haven't really mastered that and the pics don't turn out very well.

I only saw three pairs of legs on the two that I pulled for pictures and they were very active and I was having a hard time getting pictures, so I didn't really have a chance to determine if they were uniramous or biramous. And since I am not very good with the leg counting yet (but getting better!) I need a very cooperative larva or some really good pics to stare at for awhile. I think I read a paper that refers to success of this species, but I haven't found the reference yet. And I definitely haven't found much information about protocols or about staging. I use your hispidus thread as a reference and I found a paper that has some Stenopus stages up to Z5, IIRC. They seem to be molting to the next stage every fourth or fifth day right now.

Right now they are just getting NHBBS daily, and the water is changed 100% every other day. Rots took over my large Euterpina culture so I have to get that sorted out before I can start adding in copepods again. Ugh.
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Breeding Stenopus scutellatus (golden banded boxing shrimp)

Postby DavideAM » Mon Jan 20, 2014 9:29 pm

Congrats
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Re: Breeding Stenopus scutellatus (golden banded boxing shri

Postby Luis A M » Wed Jan 22, 2014 12:01 am

Pro scopes use some optic fiber lights that can be placed in the desired position.I wanted to get them,but they are insane expensive here :evil:
Larvae for photo work are placed in a thick well slide,and then water is carefully withdrawn with a pipette until they are almost dry.Then they stay quiet.
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Re: Breeding Stenopus scutellatus (golden banded boxing shri

Postby ShannPeach » Wed Jan 22, 2014 1:27 pm

That is essentially what I do to take larval pics, but I was getting nervous about how long it was out and it was still scooting around a bit. I don't have the fancy lights but they sure sound nice. I just used what I found sitting on a shelf and rigged the microscope to make it work. It was partly just laziness :)

I did a 100% water change last night and counted 29. I didn't try to stage them since I don't expect a new stage until the next water change on Thursday, if they stick to the schedule they have been on. I should also be getting a new hatch from the female tonight or tomorrow, I believe. I plan to start them on rotifers again but won't have many Euterpina copepods to add. I may use more Apocyclops though....we'll see.
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Re: Breeding Stenopus scutellatus (golden banded boxing shri

Postby ShannPeach » Fri Jan 24, 2014 9:48 am

100% water change last night and it appears that at least some are in Z5. I didn't have much time for pics last night so I may try to get more today.

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Looks like four pairs of legs to me...I looked at three of them last night and only got a couple good pics. One looked like it had four pairs of legs and one looked like it had only three.
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Perhaps it was just the way it was laying. Anyway, that's why I want to take some more pics today. I also want to get a better shot of the tail.
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Luis-How do you manipulate a larva once it's on the slide? I have a super hard time getting these to lay on their stomach or their back and get nervous trying to move them with the pipet because I don't want to damage them. When I do get ones that aren't on their sides, it's more of a dumb luck thing. Is there a secret to it or some odd trick I need to learn (like use a cat hair on the end of a toothpick or something...)? :lol:
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Re: Breeding Stenopus scutellatus (golden banded boxing shri

Postby ShannPeach » Fri Jan 24, 2014 11:59 am

Oh, and I think that at least the first set of legs might be biramous...can anyone confirm? I feel like you can see the other leg of the "pair" out of focus in the background coming out from the same area of the stomach, but there are two that are more in focus...
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Re: Breeding Stenopus scutellatus (golden banded boxing shri

Postby Luis A M » Fri Jan 24, 2014 6:44 pm

Don't mean to repeat myself but,those are darned very good pics! :mrgreen:
It is easy to count/examine the legs playing with the focus,while you are watching it.In a pic you can't tell so well what you are seeing.But yes,I see 4 pairs,the 4th seems half developed.
True,when they get pinned in little water,most of the times they lay on their sides.This is convenient for checking legs and pleopods,but not for the tail fin.No,I wouldn't try to roll the zoea manually,rather to add some water and try again.
If it doesn't work,you can still see the telson in the swimming larva.And make a short vid and take a pic out of it :wink: :idea:
Did you see the full gut running the length of the abdomen? 8)
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Re: Breeding Stenopus scutellatus (golden banded boxing shri

Postby ShannPeach » Tue Jan 28, 2014 1:51 pm

Luis A M wrote:Don't mean to repeat myself but,those are darned very good pics! :mrgreen:

Thanks!
Luis A M wrote: If it doesn't work,you can still see the telson in the swimming larva.And make a short vid and take a pic out of it :wink: :idea:
Did you see the full gut running the length of the abdomen? 8)

I might try that. No, I don't see the full gut running the length of the abdomen...but I don't really know everything I'm looking at yet! Is that the darker line that runs down near its back?

Day 21 yesterday and they got a 100% water change. I counted 25 or so :/ If I keep losing a couple during each molt, pretty soon I won't have any left :cry:
Some pics:
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I can't say really if it is a new zoeal stage (hopefully Z6!) but I they are definitely bigger, judging by this photo taken on day 17 (Z5)
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and this photo taken on day 21
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The older larvae definitely takes up more of the screen and they were taken at the same magnification. I haven't been able to get any shots of the tail lately, which would be a bit more helpful. They just don't lay on the slide right and I get too nervous that I will kill them if I try for too long :roll:
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Re: Breeding Stenopus scutellatus (golden banded boxing shri

Postby ShannPeach » Mon Feb 03, 2014 12:00 pm

Okay, today is day 28 for these guys. They get some enriched artemia and also nhbbs daily. I've kept up with using green/brown water as well, so there is always phyto around. I do, on occasion, add some copepods (Apocyclops or Euterpina usually) if I have some to spare.

Day 25 I expected a new stage if they were keeping on their original "schedule." I pulled two for pics that day.
The first larva:
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The second larva:
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(I caught it pooping! Ha!)
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They both have five pairs of legs, but the second larva seems to have some weird round shapes. Is that what they look like when they are becoming biramous? Is that some weird molt issue or did some of its legs break off at some point? I don't know...

Then yesterday, day 27, they were due for another water change and I pulled one for pics even though I am not expected a new stage:
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(Best tail shot I could get)
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That one seemed to only have four pairs of legs, so....

I have about twenty left of the older bunch and more, but not a ton more, of the younger batch.
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Re: Breeding Stenopus scutellatus (golden banded boxing shri

Postby Amie » Tue Feb 04, 2014 8:43 am

Just found this thread, not sure how I missed it. Your pictures are awesome, great work. I would really appreciate it if you posted some pictures of your breeding setup and talked about how you are raising them (not just the food). For example, how are you doing a 100% water change? What kind of filtration, if any, do you have on them? What kind of light? What temperature? Salinity? What do you feed the broodstock?

Congrats for getting them this far and good luck!
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Re: Breeding Stenopus scutellatus (golden banded boxing shri

Postby ShannPeach » Tue Feb 04, 2014 9:23 am

No problem! The broodstock were purchased as a pair so I didn't have to deal with pairing them up. They are kept in a 5.5 gallon tank with a sponge filter and some filter floss pad stuff (they like to crawl on it). I feed the adults a wide variety of things....frozen homemade mash, Repashy gel food, Hikari mysis, PE mysis, pellets, ova, enriched brine (frozen), etc.... The larvae are collected in a snagger now which is so much easier than using a flashlight and a turkey baster. I put the larvae into a 3L bottle that is inverted with the bottom cut out (so the top is then open once I have it positioned). I place that into a dishpan (from Walmart) filled with water that is heated. I put a rigid airline tube down to the bottom of the bottle (which is actually the cap) and set it to a steady bubble--enough to keep the water moving nicely. I will try to take a pic of it tonight if I remember. For water changes I pull the bottle out, and (as gently as I can) pour the contents into a 1 gallon tupperware bowl. Then I pipet each larvae out into a small dish. They end up being in a few turkey baster squirts of water by the time that is done. I rinse out the bottle, sometimes wipe it out if it's really gunked up, then baster the larvae back into the bowl. Then I set the bottle into a water pitcher to hold it upright while I drip in new ASW. Once it is about halfway full I put it back into the heated water bath (otherwise it just floats and tips over and all the larvae get dumped into the water bath). I do water changes (100%) every other day and I found this really allows me to keep prey numbers of the right size available. I have problems in larger containers since I haven't quite mastered adding just the right amount. The larvae get live phyto added, but otherwise no filtration. I use a fluorescent strip light about 6 inches above the dishpan setup--just one of those cheap $10 under the cabinet ones you can get at Walmart. I shoot for about 80F with the heater, but don't know what the actual temp is because they are by a drafty window. Salinity is usually 1.023-1.025
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Re: Breeding Stenopus scutellatus (golden banded boxing shri

Postby Luis A M » Tue Feb 04, 2014 3:28 pm

Thank you Shannon for sharing your rearing protocol! :D Basically you are using something like the artemia hatchers for your larvae.Wunsch used a similar aproach and I also had.Basically changing 100% of the water and uneaten food replacing the zoea in fresh medium and food.Problems are too much work and need to manipulate the fragile larvae.
About your last pics,you´re surely sailing unchartered waters! :wink: .You have 5 pairs of legs (pereiopods) if the little one before them are the MP3.And the telson looks squarish and the endopods reach it´s full length,not taking the spines.I´m not sure if those bumps in the pleon (tail,abdomen) are pleopod buds :?
I´m at a loss about the round thingies attached to legs.Do they move?.They could be Vorticella which I have seen in the past.
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Re: Breeding Stenopus scutellatus (golden banded boxing shri

Postby ShannPeach » Tue Feb 04, 2014 4:03 pm

I'm happy to share what I've done to get to this point. One of the main reasons I've gotten so far is because other people have shared what does and doesn't work for them... :D

It is a lot of work, but it is the best option for me. I've tried using BRTs but I always end up with the problem of way too much overgrown food. I have been thinking about switching to 100% water changes every three days for the younger batch, just so I don't have to handle them as much/do as much. Eventually I will have a flow through system setup where the uneaten food can be flushed out and I don't have to touch them except for pics, but I haven't finished that yet :roll: Maybe this weekend :lol:

MP3=mouthparts? I didn't think those short leg-like things before the longer legs were legs and assumed they were fancy mouthparts...

I don't think it has pleopod buds yet. Those bumpy things on the abdomen seem relatively unchanged compared to previous stages, and I'm assuming the spikes that it has in random spots are just some ornamental decoration :D If you had to guess, what zoeal stage would you put them at? If they are on track they should be in Z7 now (perhaps even Z8 today)...I wish there were some staging diagrams out there! I will have to look at Lysmata development again and make note of when the pleopod buds start showing up; I can't remember off the top of my head.

The round things...They seemed to move with the legs, from what I recall, but I can't remember if they moved independently at all. Either they did and I didn't notice/make note of it, or they just didn't. I've never heard of Vorticella, so now you have sent me off on a google hunt :lol:
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Re: Breeding Stenopus scutellatus (golden banded boxing shri

Postby Amie » Tue Feb 04, 2014 4:54 pm

Thank you for sharing that information. When you place the larvae back into the NSW, do you re-acclimate? Or just use the turkey baster and put them in? Do you have anything in the water with the larvae besides the airline tube? For example, do they have something that they can hang on to when molting?

Have you noticed a pattern as to when you have die-off? Or are you losing one or two every so often? In other words, do you lose more after a water change? Before a water change? After a molt?
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Re: Breeding Stenopus scutellatus (golden banded boxing shri

Postby ShannPeach » Tue Feb 04, 2014 5:25 pm

So the larvae aren't actually placed into new ASW. They are put into a small amount of their old water and then I drip in the new water over a period of 20-30 minutes. There isn't anything in there other than the rigid airline. I have noticed the biggest die off around Z2, perhaps Z2 to Z3 molt timeframe. Other than that, the numbers remain pretty steady, I just lose one here and there--but that definitely adds up over time.
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Re: Breeding Stenopus scutellatus (golden banded boxing shri

Postby ShannPeach » Tue Feb 04, 2014 5:27 pm

I'll add that I usually start focusing more on bbs instead of rotifers once they are in Z2, so perhaps keeping them with rotifers for another zoeal stage or two may help. I will try that with the next batch.
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