Peppermint Shrimp Spawn L.boggessi

Re: Peppermint Shrimp Spawn L.boggessi

Postby DeneBanger » Wed Jun 22, 2011 12:51 pm

Aquazoa wrote:Hello Denebanger,
Have you noticed any 5th parapodia on your zoeae yet?
It has just been my experience that when using simple nursery tanks with airstones that many late stage zoeae have these delicate appendages twisted, torn off, missing one or even both and that their poor swimming abilities they expend more energy and that tends to result in longer larval marking times.
With a sophisticated planktonkreisel (with slotted inflow apertures close to the bottom of the tank) not only are larvae suspended more effortlessly in the center of the tank, so is their food items (and groups of peppermint larvae can share a floating suspended cube of squid...a sight to behold). There are no dead corner zones and all the water is moving in a gentle uniform ferris wheel gyre.
Presence of both parapodia on larvae in a well designed kreisel attests to the more gentle upwelling flow patterns and, most importantly, settlement was achieved
by day 20 as opposed to six weeks in an airstone driven rectangular nursery.
Of course there are many factors and permutations of technique (Wittenrich used black tubs with airstone in center, Riley and Palmtag used cylindrical screened tanks in larger tanks, earlier researchers used beakers, but Rhyne, Calado, and others at Florida Tech seemed to have had some of the most remarkable results with cylindricoconical upwellers). Actually I still think a rounded black tub shaped like one of those big restaurant dough mixing bowls with a gentle air release 2/3 of the way down in the center might be just fine. Nevertheless my best results have been achieved with my perfected Greve/Helgoland planktonkreisel...for what it's worth.

Porter Betts

Thanks for your input Porter, I haven't got far enough along yet with the zoeae....the first batch died off between Z2 and Z3 but I think that they were just a batch of low quality larvae. I am familiar with the methods that you are describing; however, I'm going to keep working with this system design because of its very low daily maintenance, ease of use and ability to provide optimum water quality. In this system I don't use any air and have a gentle circulation, my past observations with adding air stones or using air are fluctuations in pH.

Quick update....still no larvae! Both PS are STILL holding and the eggs on both are now a distinct silver and plenty of eye spots are visible to the naked eye...perhaps I'll have a nursery full of larvae tonight.

Now a note about the snails that I've added to the nursery, I added them too soon! On several occassions I've caught the adult PS killing them for a little escargot even though they are very well fed....so not a good idea to add the snails until after the larvae have arrived and the adults have been moved back to the broodstock tank. With this new diet that the adults are on I've observed significant growth and of course this prolonged period of carrying the eggs. We are now at day 22, I was of the understanding that it only takes 10-14 days for the larvae to hatch as was my experience with the first batch. Now, I'm starting to think that this prolonged period is far better and should produce higher quality larvae (time will tell) and that the previous 14 day cycle may well be a premature cycle as a result of poor nutrition (this is only an idea based on what I'm currently observing).

Now as far as the system goes, I am running a set of NO flourescents across the broodstock and the nursery; however, because the nursery has very little flow through I am starting to see the development of cyano , so the plan is to move the lights to a position several feet above to create more of an ambient lighting effect. If this doesn't help with the cyano then I'll switch to a light source for the broodstock only tank and leave the nursery with no direct lights. (The photoperiod is important to get the PS to keep spawning).

....my next entry should be the announcment of the larvae (I hope).
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Re: Peppermint Shrimp Spawn L.boggessi

Postby Aquazoa » Wed Jun 22, 2011 8:53 pm

I commend your enthusiasm....you must be a young fellow!
It is indeed so very refreshing to see the more professional exchange of theories to be found on MOFIB, the courteous more civil dialogues in these forums as compared to mainstream blogs which seem to always degenerate into myopic shouting matches, LOL. We are of a higher ilk, I would say.
I didn't want you to think my post was being critical, I just wanted to mention why I like my kreisel (hardly anything ever settles in this one).
I guess I am still unclear as to what your nursery is exactly like, so curiosity killing the cat here....
Another observation I was talking to Andy about is that when my kreisel was permanently downstream of my reef refugium (allowing larval spawns to automatically collect there with no effort) there developed a problem....
Colonization of the nursery environment with multitudes of amphipods thwarted any survival of the zoeae as the amphipods would pick off the zoeae at night and eat them. So the lesson learned from this was that a reef connected larval tank may need drainage (and flushing with freshwater or bleach) prior to initiating a larval run as there would be no amphipoda at the outset. Otherwise larvae would have to be collected and transferred or hatched with the parent directly inside a remote larval tank. A micron filter on the system input line can also help to minimize contaminating organisms.
I like what you had to say about the amboinensis settling cue idea. A similar theory was described in the paper I have cited in my article which describes Periclimenes sagittifer culture utilizing anemone placement in the rearing system's sump as a symbiont settling cue.
Good luck in your endeavors!

Porter
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Re: Peppermint Shrimp Spawn L.boggessi

Postby DeneBanger » Thu Jun 23, 2011 1:56 pm

Aquazoa wrote:I commend your enthusiasm....you must be a young fellow!
It is indeed so very refreshing to see the more professional exchange of theories to be found on MOFIB, the courteous more civil dialogues in these forums as compared to mainstream blogs which seem to always degenerate into myopic shouting matches, LOL. We are of a higher ilk, I would say.
I didn't want you to think my post was being critical, I just wanted to mention why I like my kreisel (hardly anything ever settles in this one).
I guess I am still unclear as to what your nursery is exactly like, so curiosity killing the cat here....
Another observation I was talking to Andy about is that when my kreisel was permanently downstream of my reef refugium (allowing larval spawns to automatically collect there with no effort) there developed a problem....
Colonization of the nursery environment with multitudes of amphipods thwarted any survival of the zoeae as the amphipods would pick off the zoeae at night and eat them. So the lesson learned from this was that a reef connected larval tank may need drainage (and flushing with freshwater or bleach) prior to initiating a larval run as there would be no amphipoda at the outset. Otherwise larvae would have to be collected and transferred or hatched with the parent directly inside a remote larval tank. A micron filter on the system input line can also help to minimize contaminating organisms.
I like what you had to say about the amboinensis settling cue idea. A similar theory was described in the paper I have cited in my article which describes Periclimenes sagittifer culture utilizing anemone placement in the rearing system's sump as a symbiont settling cue.
Good luck in your endeavors!

Porter

No offense taken..the idea that the presence of fish being a settlement cue comes from my experience breeding Berghia Nudibranchs. When I set out to breed the Berghia on a commercial level we did not get any significant numbers until we introduced aragonite into the breeding system. This came from doing research on them and I came across some information pertaining to the fact that in their natural habitat they must have two things present crushed coral and food (Aiptasia) after learning this we introduced aragonite and before long we were producing them by the thousands. When I was considering amboinensis I realized that they are a cleaner shrimp so I thought about the nudi's and then the idea came to mind that perhaps the presence of fish in the breeding system might be a key to being able to produce them either faster or in greater quantities....however, this is just an idea but one with some merit worthy of experimentation. Now the question arises, "How do you add fish to a breeding set-up containing such delicious snacks?" Well for my system it is easy....just add them to the sump (currently I have two yellow-tailed Damsels in the sump on my breeding system. The system that I am currently using is adapted from the one that I used to breed nudibranchs with the exception of lights and some modifications to the size of powerfilters used for re-circulating the water in the breeding chambers. In my book I take the reader through a step-by-step tutorial on how to build this system (approx. 100 pages complete with photos). But let me give you a brief over view, the system contains a full sump complete with proper filtration (ie skimmer, UV, power filters for chemical filtration), the nursery and broodstock tanks are identical except for the re-circulation of water and flow throughput, Within the breeding chambers is a natural barrier which separates and contains the larvae and there is no fear of the larvae being drawn into any of the filtration equipment. Because I run a sump I am also able to run a water top-off system to control the fluctuation of specific gravity due to evaporation and therefore I maintain a very stable environment when it comes to variables such as salinity, temperature and pH. In addition to the water top-off I also have a system that controls water changes so that if there is any slight variation in specific gravity, temperature or pH the introduction of the freshly aged SW is so gradual that it has virtually no effect on the larval stages. In addition the return pump intoduces freshly filtered water at a rate of about 3 gallons/hour and therefore the larvae are constantly receiving a 100% water change of freshly filtered water.
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Re: Peppermint Shrimp Spawn L.boggessi

Postby DeneBanger » Thu Jun 23, 2011 1:56 pm

Day 23.......both PS are still holding...............
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Re: Peppermint Shrimp Spawn L.boggessi

Postby DeneBanger » Thu Jun 23, 2011 2:07 pm

Here is another very interesting occurrence.....today, while feeding the adult broodstock I noticed an empty carapace, the adults have undergone a full molt while holding the eggs at day 23 and it has not effected the eggs at all. I didn't know that this was possible.

So while we are waiting on this ever so slow larvae to make their grand appearance, let me mention something about feeding time. At feeding time I simply slice off a sliver of my frozen seafood goo and stick it to the end of my finger, each PS comes up to the surface in turn hangs on to my finger then takes off to the bottom of the tank again with a nice little clump of food. It has gotten to the point that they only have to see me coming and up they come!
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Re: Peppermint Shrimp Spawn L.boggessi

Postby DeneBanger » Thu Jun 23, 2011 10:30 pm

Here is a pic of the carapace and the molt that occurred while the PS was holding at day 23 and a photo of the PS. In the pic of the PS you can see the reflectivity of the eggs as well as the next batch forming behind the head, this one has been holding for 23 days.
carapace while hlding eggs at day 23.jpg


Peppermint Shrimp holding eggs at day 23.jpg
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Re: Peppermint Shrimp Spawn L.boggessi

Postby DeneBanger » Sat Jun 25, 2011 11:26 am

Last night the larvae arrived! Approximate count 20 at day 24-25! There names are Sally, Susan, Robin, Brett, Marcus Apollius Mentis.......LOL! Just kidding! A small batch but the PS are still quite young.



These are doing the same as the first batch, they are attaching themselves to the sides of the nursery, for those that have attached themselves to the sides their positions are all the same, heads down and abdomens gently moving in the water column. Now it is time to feed the rascals.
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Re: Peppermint Shrimp Spawn L.boggessi

Postby DeneBanger » Sun Jun 26, 2011 1:28 pm

Day 2 the larvae seem to be doing very well, this morning I noticed that they have developed stalked eyes so now we are at zoeae 2. At day two this batch seems alot larger than the first, best guess is that they are approx. 2 maybe 3 mm long. Here's another observation, when I shine a flashlight into the nursery at night I've noticed hundreds of little copepods in the range of 100-200 microns feeding off the microalgae, these weren't there for the previous batch or at least they went unnoticed. I can't tell if they are feeding on them or not but for now I'm going to assume that the presence of the copepods is a good thing.



Another note the shrimp that just spawned is holding eggs again, and its mate is still holding....I've lost track of how long the mate has been holding so I'll just keep an eye on the egg development for now.
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Re: Peppermint Shrimp Spawn L.boggessi

Postby Suzy » Wed Jun 29, 2011 9:38 am

Great book! I got it last week, and it has a lot of great info! I now have like 10 bazillion egg strands!

Just a quick question on your new yummy diet for your shrimp. Are there certain fish that are better than others? I notice your recipe has a few easily obtainable things, but how did you decide on the ingredients? If my local grocery store does not have them, can we substitute other things and still get the increased nutrients?
www.Suzysreef.com
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