Peppermint Shrimp Spawn L.boggessi

Peppermint Shrimp Spawn L.boggessi

Postby DeneBanger » Wed Jun 01, 2011 12:30 am

No more than two hours after lights out my PS released the clutch and now I have several hundred larvae in the nursery! Upon observing them for the last two hours I have come to believe that the kreisel system is not the best method for rearing Lysmata and attempts to keep them suspended in the water column are unnatural and probably account for the low success rates in breeding this species. Let me explain my observations, the larvae are all attaching themselves to the sides of the nursery and arranging themselves in the same position, head down, abdomens gently beating in the water column. The nursery has been established for about two months and has plenty of diatoms and a nice brown film algae along the sides of the tank. Upon first glance I thought that perhaps they were getting caught in the film algae until I noticed that they are actually reaching out and taking a hold of the sides. I'm ruling out the possiblity that they are accidentally getting stuck because they have all taken on the same position (heads dow,n abdomens gently beating in the water column), if they were getting stuck they would be every direction including being stuck on their backs and they are not. Then every once in a while they will release themselves move along in the current and then reattach themselves. They appear to be feeding off the film algae in the nursery.

The set-up that I am using is a slightly modified version of the same breeding system that I discuss in my book "Breeding Berghia Nudibranches the best kept secret".
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Re: Peppermint Shrimp Spawn L.boggessi

Postby DeneBanger » Wed Jun 01, 2011 11:50 am

Another interesting observation, if I turn the lights out the larvae release themselves from the sides of the nursery and float through the water column. If I turn the lights on again and wait for about a half hour they all begin to reattach themselves to the sides in the same position (heads down, abdomens gently pumping in the water column). I wonder has anyone else observed this behaviour?
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Re: Peppermint Shrimp Spawn L.boggessi

Postby Luis A M » Wed Jun 01, 2011 2:30 pm

No,the larvae are plankton dwellers and there are no walls there to cling to :wink:.Yet I have seen large Lysmata larvae,Z6 and older;that they "glide" the tank walls like looking for food and wondered if Lysmata don´t have a pre-settlement benthic aproach :? .But this was disregarded by Lysmata experts,so your observation as well as mine must be taken as an artifact produced by captive conditions.
I also have my doubts about the pros of using kreisels or some type of upwellers for these larvae.Healthy zoea can perfectly keep themselves off the bottom.They swim well with their "swimming legs",they don´t use the abdomen/telson beat except on emergencies.
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Re: Peppermint Shrimp Spawn L.boggessi

Postby DeneBanger » Wed Jun 01, 2011 5:03 pm

Well to be quite honest, I am starting to think that they do indeed have a pre-settlement benthic approach as well....at least as far as captive breeding goes. Even today I am noticing them settle on the sides and I am almost certain that they are feeding off the film algae. All their behaviour seems very natural and I think that I am going to continue along this path. The nursery takes full advantage of a sump and proper filtration (ie power filters, skimmer, UV and water top-offs) with no threat to the larvae so this works extremely well (it is a slightly modified version of the system that I developed for breeding berghia nudibranches), now I can concentrate on their food requirements. My current nursery seems to provide the right environment for this "seemingly natural behaviour" so perhaps I can eliminate "the stress factor".

In the back of my mind I am also wondering if providing this type of environment will also help trigger certain phases of metamorphisis and final settlement...if not in this species maybe in skunks.
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Re: Peppermint Shrimp Spawn L.boggessi

Postby Luis A M » Wed Jun 01, 2011 6:11 pm

I was surprised to find,long time ago,that small Lysmata zoea do filter feed on microalgae,besides capturing and munching bigger prey.This can be seen clearly against a white background,with the scope,like a contrasted X rays of the digestive tract :o .You will see this treated in my talk with Rob T.in this forum.
Don´t fear to do something new and non conventional.With the present knowledge,we can easily rear peppers,but hardly debelius.While amboinensis (skunks) remain extremely difficult,and Stenopus not possible.So new methods are always welcome! 8)
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Re: Peppermint Shrimp Spawn L.boggessi

Postby DeneBanger » Wed Jun 01, 2011 6:16 pm

Sometimes we need to take what has been learned.....then break the paradigm in order to advance!
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Re: Peppermint Shrimp Spawn L.boggessi

Postby DeneBanger » Wed Jun 01, 2011 7:47 pm

Now the larvae are beginning to take "prey", this time around I have decided not to go down the normal route of NHBBS, instead I have been starting to feed them fresh water cyclops in the 200-400 micron range. Based on my experience with raising seahorses I have come to learn a couple of things:
1) artemia cysts are notorious for carrying pathogens (especially vibrio sp)
2) I have only found hydroids in association with this food source.

and thirdly, one way to cut down on pathogens or disease is to introduce a food source from a different environment altogether. When we were raising seahorses we used a fresh water mysis (PE Mysis) in order to help reduce/eliminate disease.
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Re: Peppermint Shrimp Spawn L.boggessi

Postby DeneBanger » Thu Jun 02, 2011 11:03 am

I just came back from feeding the PS, and now my "female" is holding eggs again so it looks like I'll have another batch of larvae in about two weeks. Just before she released the first clutch I noticed she was developing eggs behind her head and now just a day and a half later (after she was moved back to the mating tank) they have moved down to her abdomen.
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Re: Peppermint Shrimp Spawn L.boggessi

Postby DeneBanger » Thu Jun 02, 2011 11:55 am

Quick update at 36 hours old the larvae have developed stalked eyes.
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Re: Peppermint Shrimp Spawn L.boggessi

Postby Luis A M » Thu Jun 02, 2011 2:47 pm

My local FW Cyclops die seconds after touching SW.Do yours survive longer or are taken dead?.
Sterilizing cysts is one of the reasons for decapsulating with Cl.
Hydroids bloom in artemia fed tanks because they feed on it.
Normal swimming position in Lysmata zoea is belly up and head down.
You can easily tell the first stages:
Z1=sessile eyes
Z2=stalked eyes
Z3=telson "fins"
Z4=pp5 "paddles"
The next stage easy to tell is Z8,when pleopod buds show.I have some Z8 now,at 20 DAH.
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Re: Peppermint Shrimp Spawn L.boggessi

Postby DeneBanger » Thu Jun 02, 2011 7:50 pm

Hi Luis, I am shaving store bought frozen cyclops and the larvae have readily taken to it.
I am familiar with decap of cysts, I have successfuly bred several species of seahorses (H. erectus, H. reidi, H. zostorae, H. barbari) as well as the Banggai Cardinal and the Berghia Nudibranch....but thank-you for the extra input.

So then it would seem that for some reason I am ahead of the typical timeframe for Z2 being that stalked eyes appeared at 36 hours......is this correct? I thought that this stage was at least the 72 hour age.
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Re: Peppermint Shrimp Spawn L.boggessi

Postby Luis A M » Thu Jun 02, 2011 8:10 pm

Dene,pepper zoeas molt and change stage every 2 days.amboinensis & debelius take longer.
You should see this:
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthrea ... essi+larva
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Re: Peppermint Shrimp Spawn L.boggessi

Postby DeneBanger » Thu Jun 02, 2011 8:34 pm

Nice pics Luis....what type of equipment are you using for those? I am soon planning on purchasing a microscope with built in camera to hookup to my PC. So is it safe to say that if a PS molts every two days and there are 8 stages....the post larvae should occur at day 16 depending on temperature? Or does Z8 take alot longer before final meta?
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Re: Peppermint Shrimp Spawn L.boggessi

Postby DeneBanger » Fri Jun 03, 2011 1:01 pm

Quick update: this is now day 3...last night the larvae were swimming in erratic circles which leads me to believe that they went through some type of molting process because today they are all swimming normally again......but I am still at bench mark zoea 2. Tomorrow they should go through another major molt (zoea3) and develop tensile "fins". I have also noticed them still eating "meaty" food heartily and also grazing on the film algae on the sides of the nursery. I watched one very closely and it actually left a little "plow" mark in the algae about a 1/4 of an inch long as it gobbled away.

Since my "female" is holding a clutch again I think that I am going to concentrate on "her" diet and focus on foods with a very high DHA (Docosahexaenoic acid is an omega-3 fatty acid) rather than EPA. DHA is important in the development of the central nervous system. Drawing on my experience breeding seahorses I learned that most marine organisms have the ability to convert DHA into the necessary EPA (Eicosapentaenoic acid) that they need but they cannot convert EPA into the necessary DHA that they need in development as a result you will see premature deaths in larvae or fry that are suffering from a DHA deficiency. So let's start right at the source and "pump mama" up with a high DHA diet while she is carrying the eggs.
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Re: Peppermint Shrimp Spawn L.boggessi

Postby Luis A M » Fri Jun 03, 2011 2:35 pm

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Re: Peppermint Shrimp Spawn L.boggessi

Postby DeneBanger » Fri Jun 03, 2011 2:42 pm

drum roll please............!!! LOL! Luis.... Now I'm getting dizzy! LOL!!! You are going to have to send me a pic of yourself so that I can put a face to your name....!
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Re: Peppermint Shrimp Spawn L.boggessi

Postby DeneBanger » Fri Jun 03, 2011 8:12 pm

thanks.

So this afternoon stopped by the fresh fish counter at the local grocery store and picked up some ingredients for "mama's" diet:



1- small fresh squid $1.39

2- oysters on sale for 0.99 ea $1.98

1- large scallop $3.00

1- small piece of marlin steak $1.64 (I talked nice to the girl on the counter and told her what I was doing...she giggled and cut me a corner off the steak, I think I would have preferred some fresh mackerel but they were fresh out...anyway the marlin is a more coarse meat and that is what I was looking for.

1- bag of dried red seaweed $3.99



(and of course a box of medium sized ziplock top freezer bags and a handful of hot peperroni sticks to eat on the way home )



Once home, out came the blender and in went the squid, scallop, oysters, marlin and a small chunk of red seaweed (just enough to turn the whole batch a purple/grey colour once blended). Hit the blender button and let it blend away until it looked and smelt like a stinky thick milkshake. From there it was a matter of spooning it into the freezer bag, squeezing the air out and letting it lie flat in the freezer until fully frozen. Then I can break off a chunk or shave off slices for the Peppermints (mamas and pappas) and figure I have enough for about 3 months maybe. (The larvae I am going to keep on shaved FW cyclops...store bought BTW)



I was so pleased with my gourmet, I put a bit on the end of my finger and introduced it to the broodstock....man, they almost lept out of the tank at it,....fought over it and then each went its way with a nice little glob of seafood goo! Nothing better than when you've spent all day in the kitchen and the guests love the meal! Didn't hear a burp tho.



So today I measured the flow through on the nursery....3 gallons an hour... this gives me approximately a tank turnover of filtered water from the sump every two hours. (In other words it's a constant 100% water change in the nursery every two hours and its easier than maintaining a reef tank....that's for sure..life is good!)



Also did a 5-gallon water change on the system....that took less time than a cup of tea.



So all in all the system is working perfectly for Peppermints and their larvae,...next week I'm going to introduce a few snails into the nursery to help eat left over food....haven't decided which yet but I'm certain that I can co-breed snails along with the Peppermints (well we'll see) if not I'll set up another breeding chamber and toss them in that (the system is totally modular and I can pretty well add or subtract breeding chambers and broodstock tank set-ups in a few minutes).
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Re: Peppermint Shrimp Spawn L.boggessi

Postby DeneBanger » Sat Jun 04, 2011 12:41 pm

Okay so it's now day 4, although I don't have the ability to accurately measure the length of the larvae at the moment, they look to be about 2-3 mm long now. No other major changes at the moment...their just doing what larvae do...eat and swim, but I have noticed that they aren't attaching themselves to the sides of the nursery as often as what they did the first day. I guess that would be because they can handle the meaty foods now and aren't interested in the film algae as much any more. Gearing up for the next major molt which will bring me to zoea 3, things seem to be moving along well because I can see that their tails are less heart shaped now and broadening out with slight notches. So things are still looking pretty good at the moment.

Now, the way that the broodstock have been gobbling down the "new" food and the amounts of it that I can see in their digestive tract leads me to believe that I must have been starving these before hand and they certainly weren't getting enough (I had them on the FW cyclops as well up until yesterday's creation of the new food). Okay, I'm guilty...and I'm certain that this first group of larvae were probably not of the highest quality. Not only because of a "poor" diet in mama but this was her first batch as well. The broodstock were all very small and couldn't have been more than a few months old from post larvae.

Now, let's take a look at the losses so far....after the first night I lost most of the larvae but that has more to do with me experimenting with this system and I most certainly had the re-circulation PF (power-filter) far too high (there is no chance for the larvae to be sucked into this PF because this PF draws water in from an outer chamber). The second day the PF was still too high and finally had to be turned off all together with just the input water turned on at a rate of 3 gals/hour to give the breeding chamber a constant water change. As the larvae get larger I'll experiment with turning the PF back on...what I might have to do is add a very small recirculation pump to the water jacket between the inner and outer chambers...we'll see maybe next batch, I don't want to introduce too many variables at this point (this is were I think we as hobbyists make alot of our breeding mistakes..we panic make a million changes and then lose track of what has been done and loose sight of all the causes/effects. The inner chamber of the breeding unit holds all the larvae and none can pass through to any of the filtration equipment or return water, here I am not using any type of a screen but rather a natural barrier. So, right now it looks as though I have somewhere around 10-15 larvae left give or take a few (for now I am okay with that number since the goal of the first batch was to prove out the slight system modifications necessary when adopting my system from nudibranches to crustaceans....this passed with flying colours, so a little pat on the back for me, and the first major goal is a complete success). This frees me up to concentrate and spend my efforts on dietary needs. Really looking forward to the next batch because of the major diet change for mama and it'll be round two for her. On batch two we won't make any other changes to the diet, the broodstaock on the new food and the larvae on shaved frozen FW cyclops....but that for batch two.

Alright then...patiently waiting for the next major molt to occur and then we'll be at zoea 3.
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Re: Peppermint Shrimp Spawn L.boggessi

Postby DeneBanger » Sat Jun 04, 2011 3:17 pm

Well speaking about the success of the breeding system, we have had intermitten power outages all day, this last one was about 1 1/2 hours...during such events the breeding chambers all become independent and hold water with no adverse effects on the larvae or broodstock (however, this is dependent on ambient temperature).



A few random thoughts...if I have to add a small pump in the water jacket between the inner/outer chambers of the breeding chamber.....what I might do is add a small 9-watt submersible UV I'll hold that thought. Also, the inner chamber design could also be incorporated right into the design of a sump or if there is already room in an existing sump an inner chamber could easily be added (whereby the sump itself would become the outer chamber of the breeding chamber). This would make a breeding set-up possible for any and every hobbyist around the globe to incorporate into their reef or salt water set-ups. How is that for a home aquaculture explosion....maybe even a movement of truly conscientious aquarists! By doing incorporating an inner chamber to every sump....well, it would take no time and very little effort to toss in a few snails or what have you...makes a lot of sense to me.
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Re: Peppermint Shrimp Spawn L.boggessi

Postby DeneBanger » Sun Jun 05, 2011 12:14 pm

Today is day 5 and there are no larvae left from this batch. I'm pretty certain that this was a weak or poor quality hatch...just based on the observations of how the broodstock are devouring this new food and the quantities that they are able to consume compared to their previous diet of FW cyclops. I am expecting that this synopsis will be enforced as I continue to work with this species.



So mama's expected due date for batch two is June 16th which is only 11 days away....stay tuned to this thread.
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Re: Peppermint Shrimp Spawn L.boggessi

Postby DeneBanger » Sun Jun 12, 2011 8:35 pm

So now we are getting close to mama shrimp's expected due date of June 14th, in preparation I moved her from the broodstock tank to the nursery. The eggs look quite engorged but are still an olive green colour, over the next few days they'll start changing colour and the day of "delivery" (or a day before) the eyes spots of the larvae will begin to show. Mama is quite comfortable in the nursery and on occasion cleans the eggs with her rear legs.



This time I've added four very small Nassarius snails to the nursery to help with any uneated food. For this batch I'm going to stay with feeding the larvae shaved FW cyclops. In a batch or two I may moved over to NHBBS but for now I want to see if there is another food source that is easier (or more convenient) for home hobbyists to use.
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Re: Peppermint Shrimp Spawn L.boggessi

Postby DeneBanger » Tue Jun 14, 2011 9:01 pm

Today was the expected due date for the larvae. No larvae after 14 days, but mama's eggs are starting to look a green/grey colour so my guess is we are still about 2-3 days off, which will bring this batch of eggs to 16-17 days.



Now while I was feeding them tonight, the other one is carrying eggs too! This is a small clutch, compared to the other one. Not sure when this happened, perhaps at the same time...not really sure, I'll have to keep close attention to the egg colour on the second one and move it to the nursery just before the hatch. With any luck I should have two spawns within a few days of each other.



......stay tuned!
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Re: Peppermint Shrimp Spawn L.boggessi

Postby DeneBanger » Tue Jun 14, 2011 9:54 pm

Here is a pic of mama with eggs.
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Re: Peppermint Shrimp Spawn L.boggessi

Postby DeneBanger » Tue Jun 21, 2011 7:35 pm

This is day 21...on one of the PS the eggs are completely silver and full of eye spots...so I am expecting one batch of larvae after lights out tonight...the other PS is still holding but the eggs are starting to look green/grey so the second batch should follow in a few more days...
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Re: Peppermint Shrimp Spawn L.boggessi

Postby Aquazoa » Tue Jun 21, 2011 9:51 pm

Hello Denebanger,
Have you noticed any 5th parapodia on your zoeae yet?
It has just been my experience that when using simple nursery tanks with airstones that many late stage zoeae have these delicate appendages twisted, torn off, missing one or even both and that their poor swimming abilities they expend more energy and that tends to result in longer larval marking times.
With a sophisticated planktonkreisel (with slotted inflow apertures close to the bottom of the tank) not only are larvae suspended more effortlessly in the center of the tank, so is their food items (and groups of peppermint larvae can share a floating suspended cube of squid...a sight to behold). There are no dead corner zones and all the water is moving in a gentle uniform ferris wheel gyre.
Presence of both parapodia on larvae in a well designed kreisel attests to the more gentle upwelling flow patterns and, most importantly, settlement was achieved
by day 20 as opposed to six weeks in an airstone driven rectangular nursery.
Of course there are many factors and permutations of technique (Wittenrich used black tubs with airstone in center, Riley and Palmtag used cylindrical screened tanks in larger tanks, earlier researchers used beakers, but Rhyne, Calado, and others at Florida Tech seemed to have had some of the most remarkable results with cylindricoconical upwellers). Actually I still think a rounded black tub shaped like one of those big restaurant dough mixing bowls with a gentle air release 2/3 of the way down in the center might be just fine. Nevertheless my best results have been achieved with my perfected Greve/Helgoland planktonkreisel...for what it's worth.

Porter Betts
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