The Bucket Method

The Bucket Method

Postby Amie » Thu Jul 26, 2007 9:28 pm

I've decided to start my own thread about my attempts to grow L. amboinensis in a 4 liter bucket. I've written about it in several threads, but I can never figure out where to post about it.

I've raised 5 different groups of larvae to their regular death day (day 22-23) with the same results. I've come to the conclusion that water quality is not important to them (at least up until day 20 or so :shock: ) I've followed the Reef Central link of Luis' to see if they are developing at a different rate than expected and they seem to be on target or even a day or two sooner than Luis' documented stages. (I was sure they would be significantly behind schedule.)

Here's the basic method that I've used. Once I've trapped them, I place them in a 4 liter bucket, but only with about 7cm of water. To this, I add enough nannochloropsis to make it a light green color. I also add Super Selco enriched rotifers and nauplii artemia.

Here are a 3 buckets that are at different stages.
Image

As you can see, I have light on one of them. I'll get to that..

I don't add light, heat or air. I let the bucket just sit on my table in my basement. The temperature is about 74 degrees in the basement right now. The light they receive is very indirect and comes from a west window.

About every 3-4 days, I will add newly mixed saltwater at 1.023 and raise the level of the water in the bucket about 4-5cm. If the green water clears, I add more. I add new enriched bbs once a week.

At about 10 days, I've started putting an LED light on in the evening for about 4 hours (after the sun has gone down). Mostly so I can see how many bbs are left in the container. But, the shrimp seem to be very phototrophic and swim right to the light when I turn it on. They seem to have a lot better luck catching the bbs since they are concentrated near the light source.

Image

So...I've never vaccuumed the bottom or done a water change. Yes, they die at days 20-23 but they were dying on those days for me when I was changing their water twice a day, aerating their container and heating it.

I tested the water, I'll put that in the next post - it's pretty interesting.
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Postby Shrimper » Sat Jul 28, 2007 7:08 pm

Hello,

This will be my first post here, but i follow up this forum closely so now i've got some little time off work to write down and share some ideas.
I admire your idea of the four liter bucket, because i'm a fan of low tech ideas (simpler is the best) but i currently work on a marine hatchery in Europe and we find every day small details that are very fun and understable, and sometimes frustating.
My vision and trys with L.Amboinensis and L.Debelius (not currently doing it in the hatchery, just really in investigation) - to be done in comercial stock ( not criticising anyone whom have achieve it) is that you sometimes need to focuse on details that you can manage if you want to.
My english is not very good so i will put in a list all my ideas to help you

- Regarding water quality, it is very important to crustacean larvae more than people think. There is an effect that i wil call "high critical point" - if a larvae hits it in terms of Ammonia, Nitrate and nitrite they are doomed to fail. Invertebrates, don't tolerate as much as fishes changes in the nitrogen compounds values (this as been documented with some help, in a wholesaler that were dying some invertebrates without knowing why)
There are other parameters that are very important too;

Temperature - for instance in the L.Wurdemanni if you change the temperature for 2 to 3 degrees (talking about celsius) your total larvae period can change from 27 days to 50 days;

If temperature is not constant the metabolism of larvae are not as perfect as expected: many reasons are appointed but some more interesting are that sometimes temperatures are cue indicators of somethings if there are changes in temperatures the larvaes may feel stressed or have others reactions (measure temperatures at night is a good example, and at the most hot period of the day).

Regarding the no aeration process and the algae - you said that when it turns brighter you add more - its a good point but if you don't have current (no air, no pump no gravitic mixture) - the algae tend to settle in the bottom of the buckets and you can be mislead thinking that the larvae are consuming more than you expect;
This have another critical factor - you provide a huge area to bacteria development - this is another critical factor (we control every parameter in the hatchery, but bacterial and cnidarian development is very important to not exist) - the immunitary system of the larvae are not that good and providing a place to occur a bloom of bacteria is not that good in my opinion (yes the Tetraselmis is good for that but not perfect ).

Without aeration i only see three things that might become problems:
- Larvae expend MUCH more energy in catching the preys and floating (assuming planctonic form - they have little or none strenght of swimming agains't the current - in aquaculture you provide the current)
- you diminish the 02 level (this is only possible to be measured if you have an all 24 h set meter - (i've been talking with a guy who produces Sparus aurata for the commercial sector, and they have this problem) - it comes from the respiration at night, the section of anearobic sediment (dirt) stress, etc
- and you can termocline your water without knowing it (it rises the possibility of crashing an intire community (in this case the bucket) - Because the bottom of the bucket heats later than the surface so you have stratified water (this is no joke, in laboratory all of this is important and to achieve good results i think so if possible at home )

About the days of the moulting zoeas - its not concrete - if you rise your temperature they will molt faster (metabolism is faster) but will have problems in organs developement (normally in the mouth structure is common) - so if it is sooner or later than the documented i think its relative (with L.wurdemanni we had them at day 18 and it's documented at day 27)

They really are very phototrophic which is good to build light traps to catch them, but the photoperiod is important again in my opinion because it can be a moulting cue (normally tthe more stable system is the one who provides best conditions - a stable photoperiod for instance).

Finally diets, what density do you use of rotifers and artemia ? (if they have to swim a lot - they have an energy loss ) - but i'm adept of new ideas like giving bacteria controlled medium (like paramecia or other ciliates, there are some marine ciliates with potential) something like Foraminifera (very abundant in the Ocean) and the orange part of the egg (the "yolke"?) because it's very proteic.

I can share a secret that is no secret. With L.Wurdemanni is easy to do it of course, but can you do it with what percentage ? i've been internshiped in a project in europe where we had more or less tanks with settlements of 93.5 % (about 4000/5000 pos-larvae per tank) that's the great goal of doing in L.amboinensis . I'm not authorized to reveal the protocols of the companys and i hope that you all understand that , but from the normal 10% to 30 % that all people do to 60 to 90 % - there ain't no new tricks to it, just dedication and control (because then you play your variables for sure and just not guessing)

I will try to reply and be more active in this forum because it interests me very much, but my days are full of work (tanks, aquariums, tanks aquariums, that sometimes i just dont' turn on the pc so sorry for my english and if a take long to reply)

Cheers

Shrimper

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Postby Amie » Sat Jul 28, 2007 9:59 pm

Shrimper, your English is very good - you shouldn't worry about it so much. I can barely even hear your accent. :wink:

I agree with everything you have stated. A controlled method is ideal. But at this point, unknown for these guys. There have been quite a few documents that have stated that L.Amboinensis need to stay in suspension because they are prey on each other. But I have not seen any evidence of this yet. I do believe that they may eat their dead, however.

I started the bucket method because I have been through so many different attempts of raising these shrimp and I am trying to eliminate different elements that could be killing them. In my case, mine always seem to die at days 21-23. I've already tried raising them (many times) in a very clean vessel with constant water changes, aeration, heat and structured feedings. It's interesting that I'm getting the exact same results .. they die at day 22-23. That tells me that water quality is not why they are dying.

At this point, I'm still convinced that it's food that is killing them. I'm not giving them the right food. That's the only element that has been constant throughout all of my experiments.
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Postby Cardinal » Sun Jul 29, 2007 5:18 am

It´s nice that you share your setup Amie, I think this is the right way to enhance and develop our methods. As I have written earlier I have had a larvae live 54 days i one dl of water with no circulaiton (water changed daily, fed twice a day). I am working on a kreisel solution now to see if the suspension plays a vital role (which I suspect due to this species´ passive feeding behaviour).

Have you considered isolating the larvae and food in a smaller container within the larger mass of water (to increase food density and reduce pollution)?

Do you have the results of the water yet Amie?

Shrimper:

I am very glad that you have joined the forum and are willing to share information with us amateurs (and lurking professionals :D ). I think all parties can benifit from this kind of exchange and competetion is not likely to arise from the amateur (or professional) side when it comes to this species imho. Your comments are very interesting and I hope you will continue to post here.

Have you tried raising this species on live mysis in later stages in the lab (hint :wink: )?

Best regards

Peter
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Postby Shrimper » Sun Jul 29, 2007 11:23 pm

Hi,

After brainstorming awhile i thought of a paper that i saw on the net last year or something about lots of crustacean larvae incluind L.debelius. It was a study about the dispersion in the sea and included first two zoea and it's possible metabolism. Of course L.debelius was pointed as "vegetarian" in early stages - but Matt Palmtag in Texas has made excelent progresses not only with algae.
My opinion based in these article and other facts like for example, the need to catch wild plankton to culture with sucess some species to the principal factor - sometimes we cannot reproduce exactly what's in the water and probably that's vital (like Amie said with the feeling that is in the diet - i agree to some extent). I bring again atention to marine ciliates ( or even for a radical aproach freshwater as paramecia - easy culturable) - because they are the reflection of true filter feeders.
Have you tried oyster eggs ? ( i think there's a product in the market somewhere ) another point is to use squid (it's very nutritive and larvae for many times have shown ability of hanging on small [very small] chunks of food)

There's again another article that states the use of artemia only in later stages, but no conclusive factor was taken from that. I've been reading our old registers and we have been able to keep L.amboinensis solely with rotifer, nanno and artemia for 60 days in a constant base (of course something is missing ).

My advice is to make from a batch small batches if 1000 are born make ten of 100 (is a good number to take small conclusions) - and try things like not giving anything at what day will they die; giving solo artemia, giving solo rotifer, giving solo algae, giving a mix or whatever you want, (i love the egg idea given by a friend) because you can really start to adapt your diets to the days in that way, but again these are only opinions.

I think that the larvae period is so extent that for the first 8/10 zoeas there is a lot of filtration without a really active predation going on.


Mysis in late stages ? not yet :) . I think it's a good idea but ideas with us have to work in a commercial way, catching every day mysis is almost an impossible work but we are trying to build a culture stock of mysis.

Anyone has thought of bacterioplancton ? as a source of food ? there is so much in the water! ( 1 million cells per ml more or less)

I do not distinguish amateurs from profissionals because the true distinction lies on the degree of dedication of each person, there are true professional amateurs, and many professionals that are or behave as amateurs.

We are expecting some amboinensis larvae next week , i will try to post a brief description of what's going on in that time.

Cheers,

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Re:

Postby Cardinal » Mon Jul 30, 2007 2:32 am

Wise and interesting words Shrimper!

Have you seen the thread "Documented foodsources for cleaner shrimp larvae" http://synchiropus.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=694 where different diets during the laerval stages are discussed? I think your knowledge could be great to develop that thread as well. Do I have your permission to copy the food related parts of your comments in this thread to that discussion?



Cheers

Peter
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Postby spk » Mon Jul 30, 2007 3:41 am

Wow,

Fantastic. Great to hear that there is so much "work" going on around these.
Some very interesting ideas too.

Shrimper, ok, you have me curious. Where abouts are you based, if you have the ability to go plankton fishing? I wish that I was close enough to the ocean to do that !!! :( :wink:

Amie, ignore my last question on that food post. I found the details here. It is what happens when you read things backwards.

I tried to stablise the water temperature but using a 5 litre container, in my guppie tank, this did not help the matter too much, although I was using air too. The larvae would gather in a corner directly opposite to where the Bbs where.

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Postby Shrimper » Mon Jul 30, 2007 10:09 am

Hello,

No problem with with the permissions, feel free to copy it (i will post somethings that i find useful in that other post about larvae food)

Yes i do have easy acess to the Ocean, but for a small times experience is interesting but more than that it's a very consuming job (imagine for example having 25,000 larvae in growing larvae stage - the quantity of wild plankton would be unthinkable). I will open a new thread tonight about two small examples of plankton catachers doable at home, that i was discussing with a researcher that might be as good as to be tested by us all.

Amie, what are the water parameters, and how are larvae going ?

Cheers,

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Postby spk » Mon Jul 30, 2007 10:38 am

Shrimper,
I look forward to your posts on the plankton net.
Ok so where are you based. I travel Europe quiet a bit and would love to meet up.
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Postby Amie » Mon Jul 30, 2007 1:19 pm

Shrimper,

Your comments are great, thank you so much for the ideas. Please tell us you live in Waikiki.

I have already done some of your ideas, but you have given me a couple more suggestions to try.

At the final stage of my last batch of shrimp, I was able to catch them on the bottom when I thought they were dying. (Day 20) I only had 6 left so I pulled them out and put them in separate containers in 100% clean water. I added different food to each one and figured that if any of them were a live by morning, that was the food I was going to stick with. Only 2 were alive in the morning .. the one with cyclopeze and the one with PhytoPlan. The one with cyclopeze died about 12 hours later and the one with PhytoPlan live until day 23 .. again.

So, the fact that it died still tells me that the food is not providing the necessary nutrition. Also, during those final 3 days, I tried to feed it brineshrimp. I put 5 different sized nauplii into the container (remember, these containers are extremely small). I watched those bbs swim all over the place, even under and on top of the shrimp. But the shrimp never ate a single one of them. It snapped a couple of times at them, but it never caught them. It never actively pursued them from what I could see. It was more interested in the PhytoPlan.

I put a tiny piece of flake food in there and it munched away at that - I even have video of that one - it's pretty cool.
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parameters of the water

Postby Amie » Mon Jul 30, 2007 3:12 pm

Here are the parameters of the bucket tests. I'm sorry it's taken so long to post, but I temporarily lost where I wrote it down. :cry: BTW: I'm a Mathmetician and Computer Programmer. So basically, I was trained to problem solve and calculate things but not to document them. :o I'm trying really hard to get better, but any advice or direction would be greatly appreciated!


Bucket 1

Absolutely no water changes
minimum food
NO light added except normal day light from the windows that received light from about 3-9pm
Original shrimp count approx. 300

Day 23 - Died

Parameters Taken Day 25

Temp 22.7C 73F
ph 8.0
Calcium 325
Alkalinity 5.6 dKh
Ammonia 5 (0.235)*

*Taking into account the ph and the temperature, by my calculation this brings the ammonia down to 0.235




Bucket 2

Bucket 2 was at day 17 on the same day that I tested Bucket 1. So, I went ahead and tested it's parameters as well in order to compare. So, these parameters are at day 17 - one week before they died.

Temp 22.7C 73F
ph 8.0
Calcium 375
Alk. 6.4 dKh
Ammonia 4.0 (.188)*


At this point, on Bucket 1, I decided to make a change (given the results of bucket 2). I did a 90% water change and added .25ml of Calcium. The shrimp still died at day 23 with the following parameters:

Temp 22.2C 72F (oops, turned the Air Conditioner down)
Calcium 425
Alk 9.6 dKh
ph 8.2
Ammonia .25 (.01735)*


*Calculated based on tables using the ph and temperature. If you're interested, I can post a copy of the table used.



I would love it if someone could make sense out of this. What I get from it is that food still matters the most. Lower temperatures keep the ammonia levels down. Calcium MAY play a part, but was it too late? Is calcium more important in their food or water? I'm surprised the Alkalinity gets so low. I used Instant Ocean, BTW.




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Postby Shrimper » Mon Jul 30, 2007 6:36 pm

Hello again,

That ammonia levels are in what scale ?

Try to measure your ammonia in water after mixturing it (new seawater) sometimes most of the salts have residual ammonia.
And nitrites ? i find these more relevant sometimes

in fact that alcalinity is a little low but i think that is normal due to it's conditions

(yes i'm interested in the table if possible )

In fact i agree with you. I'm going in the next hour or two try to take some video and photo shots of L.debelius larvae but what i've seen till now is that even rotifer (that are more "calm" than brineshrimp) seem to be big.
My idea is the same that i introduce before, we are skipping a phase in the food web - there is phytoplankton (your phytoplan) because it's so small and so dense that they only have to create (or not) a current towards the mouth. There's really another step in between that is for example tintinnids (marine protozoa) that are relative small. (speaking of tintinnids there are others ciliates and protozoa)
I've been reading in the last days about mass culture of tintinnids that has been achieved by Kenneth Gold from the New york Aquarium (don't know if he is still there) but i found an article on the net describe a culture method that goes for 1 million tintinnids per L (very nice numbers ).

Here i'm trying to brainstorm an idea to a big survival and no only one or two (sometimes it can be luck sometimes something that we don't know) but these are only concepts, because i never heard no one yet using ciliates or protozans (for exception of a gobie larvae that refused S-rotifer, documented on the net); but no one could do it too twice in good numbers so :)
I already contacted today the CCAP to know what cultures do they have, and i've got a friend in the university that's near that can help in that away.

Calcium is always important, but i'm not sure if it's a cue or not. Because they are not competing with other organisms for calcium in your buckets ...(i don't consider it a limiting factor at this point, but can be wrong)

Ooh i almost forgot, we as a commercial ornamental aquaculture are based in Portugal. Feel free to visit us. Currently i do not hold anything at home (i'm restructuring my larvae tank to a more efficient approach) but we do commercial Lysmata seticaudata and have some marine investigations and parternships with amphiprion ocellaris, seahorses and other shrimps (L.debelius and L.amboinensis, L.Rathbunae, L.uncicornis and other experimental investigation)
I probably won't be around by the next 5 weeks but our production manager and commercial director are always available. If you want to visit MP us, to arrange something). Only in 3 months time i will have my systems running then (to my own experiments at home) and there's no problem of storming ideas together.

I will write now the plankon catcher post (it's very simple) and take some photos

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Postby Cardinal » Tue Jul 31, 2007 3:11 am

Is there any point in using activated carbon in the breeding containers and perhaps the newly mixed seawater if this contains ammonia as well? Or could it possibly have negative effects?

Regarding calcium I do not think it is a settling que if the levels are similar to the ocean. How would they otherwise develop in the wild? As there is no real competition on the uptake of calcium I do not imagine the calcium gets much depleted (worth testing though). From personal experience I know that they will develop far longer than 20+ days without any additional calcium so I do not think this is why your shrimp die around this time.

Maybe corraline algae/or other algae for that matter could have an impact as with some other species (not sure if this was the case for shrimps though)?

Peter
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Postby spk » Tue Jul 31, 2007 4:58 am

Peter,

what is the significance of the coraline algae? other then removing calcium.

Steve
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Re:

Postby Cardinal » Tue Jul 31, 2007 6:49 am

spk wrote:Peter,

what is the significance of the coraline algae? other then removing calcium.

Steve


I have no idea :wink: . I was only speculating that it could perhaps be a possible settling que/improving environmental factor as some other species of algae have been found to be for other species. I will try to grind coralline algae into the breeding containers and see if it makes a difference. I do not expect this to deplete calcium (or the shrimps to settle because of it for that matter :D ).

I can see the whole forum going :roll: . But hey you don´t know unless you try. Right?
Last edited by Cardinal on Tue Jul 31, 2007 9:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re:

Postby KathyL » Tue Jul 31, 2007 7:27 am

Cardinal wrote:Is there any point in using activated carbon in the breeding containers and perhaps the newly mixed seawater if this contains ammonia as well? Or could it possibly have negative effects?
...
Peter


Hi Peter,
Carbon will remove chlorine, but not ammonia. The only thing that removes ammonia is a special deionizing set of columns. One acidifies the the ammonia molecule to make it into ammonium, a charged molecule, and the other absorbs it now that it is an ion. I don't think that ammonia comes in with the salt. Many of the cities here use ammonia to help purify tap water for drinking. It stabilizes chlorine thus making chloramine.
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Re:

Postby Cardinal » Tue Jul 31, 2007 7:58 am

KathyL wrote:Hi Peter,
Carbon will remove chlorine, but not ammonia. The only thing that removes ammonia is a special deionizing set of columns. One acidifies the the ammonia molecule to make it into ammonium, a charged molecule, and the other absorbs it now that it is an ion. I don't think that ammonia comes in with the salt. Many of the cities here use ammonia to help purify tap water for drinking. It stabilizes chlorine thus making chloramine.


Hi Kathy

Yes I am aware that activated carbon is not very efficient in removing ammonia directly but I wouldn´t go so far as to say that it will not remove ammonia at all. The marketing of activated carbon often states that it effectively removes ammonia and this is definately an exaggeration. To my knowledge it does absorb ammonia to a certain extent directly but it also prevents it from occuring in the first place by removing organic compounds etc from the water column (not relevant in newly mixed water though).

That newly mixed artificial saltwater might contain ammonia was news to me and not something I had been aware of before Shrimper mentioned it. Kathy, do you have any suggestion on how to remove ammonia from newly mixed water without effecting other parameters/water quality if ammonia really is present?

/Peter
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Postby Shrimper » Tue Jul 31, 2007 9:11 am

Hello,

Like stated before activated carbon is a known method of taking out chlorine. Taking out ammonia just like that is not very easy. I will post a link to some guys in the deparment of chemistry trying to make a polymer that absorbs NH4 ions (but in most case only PO4)

Name of the paper: Reactive nitrogen and phosphorus removal
from aquaculture wastewater effluents using polymer hydrogels

weblink: http://www.glue.umd.edu/~kofinas/papers ... aengr2.pdf

This needs to be tuned of course but for people who are interested or in the field of chemistry i think this is a very good idea to explore and apply in aquaculture facilities and home base systems.

My experience at work and at home shows that most salts contain small quantities in the process of making it, that makes us change salt brands many times trying to minimize that risk. I think that to make an accurate test, it should be imparcial - i mean trying to use somethings that is not brand related or a espectrophotometer to read the values.


About calcium and coralline algae, i think it's not concrete i do not see the direct relation and i have done some experiment with L.debelius with high calcium values that do not seem to indicate a cue.

Coralline algae is in fact a microorganism (with calcareous deposits) - there could be a beneficial effect on the consumption of microorganisms (proving that they are really consumed) to any larvae. I would look more in that way.

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Re:

Postby Luis A M » Tue Jul 31, 2007 2:03 pm

Shrimper wrote:
I can share a secret that is no secret. With L.Wurdemanni is easy to do it of course, but can you do it with what percentage ? i've been internshiped in a project in europe where we had more or less tanks with settlements of 93.5 % (about 4000/5000 pos-larvae per tank) that's the great goal of doing in L.amboinensis . I'm not authorized to reveal the protocols of the companys and i hope that you all understand that , but from the normal 10% to 30 % that all people do to 60 to 90 % - there ain't no new tricks to it, just dedication and control (because then you play your variables for sure and just not guessing)


So what was the secret ?. That your company obtains 60-90% larval survival with good management?

For how long you could keep amboinensis and debelius larvae alive?.Have you tried to raise Stenopus?
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Re:

Postby Luis A M » Tue Jul 31, 2007 2:43 pm

Shrimper wrote: I've been reading in the last days about mass culture of tintinnids that has been achieved by Kenneth Gold from the New york Aquarium (don't know if he is still there) but i found an article on the net describe a culture method that goes for 1 million tintinnids per L (very nice numbers ).

Could you give us a link/pdf?.Tintinnids as larval food sounds interesting though not much explored :?

Here i'm trying to brainstorm an idea to a big survival and no only one or two (sometimes it can be luck sometimes something that we don't know) but these are only concepts, because i never heard no one yet using ciliates or protozans (for exception of a gobie larvae that refused S-rotifer, documented on the net); but no one could do it too twice in good numbers so :)

That´s right.I think you refer to Todd G.article.In the facility he worked it was a common practice to use ciliate contaminated rotifer cultures for very small fish larvae.And as you,I never saw reports of successful larval feeding with a pure culture of ciliates :?
I already contacted today the CCAP to know what cultures do they have, and i've got a friend in the university that's near that can help in that away.

That will be very interesting,keep us informed! :D


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Postby Amie » Tue Jul 31, 2007 3:48 pm

Shrimper wrote:That ammonia levels are in what scale ?


ppm .. sorry about that.

shrimper wrote:And nitrites ? i find these more relevant sometimes


You are absolutely right, nitrites are more relevant. But for some idiotic reason, I forgot to test for that. :oops:


Shrimper wrote:(yes i'm interested in the table if possible )


Sorry, the table doesn't cut and paste very well. I've tried several different methods and it looks terrible when I preview. I'll work on it later today.


I'm not sure you are aware of this but Phytoplan is actually dried phytoplankton. It's not living, they eat it anyway.

Shrimper wrote: I already contacted today the CCAP to know what cultures do they have, and i've got a friend in the university that's near that can help in that away.


Thanks great. I will be anxious to hear what you find out.
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Postby Shrimper » Tue Jul 31, 2007 7:39 pm

Hello,

Luis, no secret at all, it was more a expression that secretism :). What we come to conclusion is doing things in laboratory may become slightly different than doing it as "industrial" based. Using 5 to 15 liters tanks is different of using 150-300 liters as you should know too, and everything from turnovers, dispersion, densities changes; but the changes are so small or often so obvious that we sometimes forget to think about it (This for our main specie L.seticaudata)
And reports of lower percentages (around 60-70%) are achieved in larval stage, then grow-out sometimes have problems too. We build our systems trying to optimize space labour and efficiency (i do not know how are things in USA and other countries but from what i heard, they are more cheap - talking about electricity and gas for example ) -it turns critical to have the maximum efficiency.
So the values of 93 % are related to a period of months of production of larvae and pos-larvae grow-out till comercial sizes are achieved. Not only good management but everything tuned up (like factors mention before) are important to have stabilized our production systems.
But in other hand i do think that good management is keeping everything keen and smooth running, so i agree with your sentence :)


We could settle L.debelius but not in quantities desired in a small experiment done. Now we are trying to make phased protocols for Debelius. keep debelius larvae no problem in getting to final Zoea stage (68 days) (again not in great numbers) - but the settlement shows to be more difficult - (some ideas suggest cues, others suggest food energy)
Now we are getting survival for the first 20 days of 68 % more or less but lot's of parameters are to be tuned up yet.
I strongly believed in water parameters and in first stages food (we are not really adressing it properly - in my opinion)
L.amboinensis never settled but kept routinely (we have some spawning pairs) to 40 day - 60 day (some i think have passed the 80 day mark or so). This one fails to get so much atention because we have 10 hours work with the main production, and spend sometime with investigations on Debelius, that dispersing a little bit more to Amboiensis sometimes is not possible.

The tintinnids paper is

http://icb.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/conte ... t/13/1/203

Currently i'm not at the university neither can go there quickly where i might have acess to this paper, so i post it where i could see it on the net. If you can get the pdf please send me. If i can have the pdf i will gladly send it to you of course.

So i could reach today the CCAP and they probably will send to us a sample of a dinoflagellate and i will try to make some trials with it. I will try to post some info on it when the sample arrives and cultures are stabilized.

Luis, did you notice any settlement cue to L.Debelius ? that my main focuse right now.

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Re:

Postby KathyL » Tue Jul 31, 2007 8:09 pm

Cardinal wrote:
KathyL wrote:Hi Peter,
Carbon will remove chlorine, but not ammonia. The only thing that removes ammonia is a special deionizing set of columns. One acidifies the the ammonia molecule to make it into ammonium, a charged molecule, and the other absorbs it now that it is an ion. I don't think that ammonia comes in with the salt. Many of the cities here use ammonia to help purify tap water for drinking. It stabilizes chlorine thus making chloramine.


Hi Kathy

Yes I am aware that activated carbon is not very efficient in removing ammonia directly but I wouldn´t go so far as to say that it will not remove ammonia at all. The marketing of activated carbon often states that it effectively removes ammonia and this is definately an exaggeration. ...

That newly mixed artificial saltwater might contain ammonia was news to me and not something I had been aware of before Shrimper mentioned it. Kathy, do you have any suggestion on how to remove ammonia from newly mixed water without effecting other parameters/water quality if ammonia really is present?

/Peter


Yes!
If you have ammonia in freshwater after running your water through a reverse osmosis filter and even deionization cartridges, you need the special acidifying cartridge before the deionization cartridge.

If you have ammonia in artificial saltwater, and want to remove it, just run it over your biofilter. Cycled bioballs or whatever you use for biofilter. The levels in tap water are really quite low, and a well cycled biofilter can convert the ammonia to nitrate, no problem.

Alternatively you can use an ammonia inactivator such as amquel or ammolock.

When I started this hobby I was agast at the ammonia that I could measure from my RO/DI system and everyone else's system in town. But these low levels did not affect anything. Everyone has beautiful algae free reef tanks. And there was no ammonia in these live rock filled tank's saltwater despite water changes and top offs with "ammonia" water. The live rock biofilter just converted it almost immediately.

I think this is a reason that many people use parent tank water to hatch clownfish eggs. It has been exposed to the biofilter long enough to be ammonia free. So the delicate larvae are not immediately exposed to the low level of ammonia they would get with artificial saltwater.

I no longer worry about it. But I am not trying to breed shrimps, which I think are more sensitive to these kinds of water quality issues.
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Postby spk » Wed Aug 01, 2007 7:07 am

kathy, et al,

I think that this brain storming is great. Nothing ventured nothing gained, and ideas that one of may have, have probablly not been thought of by others.

All ideas are good ideas, untill proved different. It is great to see that there or so many diverse thoughts out there.

I was curious about the Coraline, because so many people have different ideas about it, from being good to being particularly bad. Never thought of it as a food source.

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