Peppermint shrimp moulting prior to larvae release

Peppermint shrimp moulting prior to larvae release

Postby Hordeumvulgare » Fri May 20, 2016 6:13 pm

Hello, I want to breed some peppermint shrimp but am having the following problem;

The shrimp all moult prior to releasing the larvae, and when the moults are retained in a seperate tank the larvae never release, despite showing indications of near complete development (eyes can be seen on larvae within eggs). This suggests that it is a larval development issue and is not a direct result of adult behaviour. Furthermore the adults moult at about the right time for egg release (10-12 days), further suggesting it is directly related to larval development and not to adults.

The shrimp are fed frozen prawn and sometimes squid, live in a large tank and I have tried various things to make the larvae release including
-removing/changing macroalgae (In case of toxin/chemical release inhibiting larval development (I know this is a long shot))
-changing light conditions
-changing vessel, have had the shrimp in 80 litre tank connected to a larger system, also in 5 Litre tanks.
-changing temperature; was running whole sytem around 28.5 C, now dropped to 27.5 C

I have made my own salt water and the latest change is to take out my carbon filter and start dosing iodide, as macroalgae and normal cycling slowly depletes this element. I am yet to see the result of this effect. But as I make my own salt water, the water will also have low Br-, F- among others.

I am currently reading up on crustacean moulting/development in hope I find clues there

Anyone had this problem, and if so, how did you fix it?

regards

Sam
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Re: Peppermint shrimp moulting prior to larvae release

Postby chris melb » Wed May 25, 2016 7:17 am

G'day Sam :),

While I haven't experienced this problem, it could be diet related. I know that too much chitin from prawns (especially if you include the shell) is said to be responsible for clownfish larvae not being able to hatch out from their shell case. You could reduce the amount of shrimp in their diet.

Cheers,

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Re: Peppermint shrimp moulting prior to larvae release

Postby Hordeumvulgare » Wed May 25, 2016 9:04 am

G'day Chris,

Interesting. I will give this a go, might start feeding more tinned fish. I have posted the question on another site, and have received replies regarding both water movement and iodine levels in the water, which I have attempted to address.

I actually prefer feeding squid, but it floats so is a little annoying in this respect.

I have never used formulated diets, I went and analysed the composition of a number in my former life, and we decided that they pretty much dont know what their doing, but neither do I so I might bite the bullet and buy some as well

I have several shrimp with brown eggs underneath so expecting something to happen over the next couple of days, will keep you posted
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Re: Peppermint shrimp moulting prior to larvae release

Postby Luis A M » Fri May 27, 2016 3:05 pm

I agree Sam;embryos are dying before hatching and remain attached to the molt.What species did you get there,could you take some pics including a dorsal view?.
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Re: Peppermint shrimp moulting prior to larvae release

Postby Hordeumvulgare » Sun May 29, 2016 10:36 pm

Hola Luis,

Read many of your post, impressed by your knowledge

Tried to upload photo, but its not working for me. Any advice?
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Re: Peppermint shrimp moulting prior to larvae release

Postby Amie » Tue May 31, 2016 12:49 pm

I don't understand, you are saying the larvae are NEVER released? Is that possible? It seems like if the shrimp never released the larvae would die and begin to rot in the belly of the parent shrimp.
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Re: Peppermint shrimp moulting prior to larvae release

Postby Amie » Tue May 31, 2016 1:05 pm

How much iodine are you adding to the water? Are you testing to verify that there is not too much iodine?


Hordeumvulgare, you should be able to post images now. Newly registered users cannot upload images, in order to prevent spamming. But your account has been fixed.
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Re: Peppermint shrimp moulting prior to larvae release

Postby Hordeumvulgare » Wed Jun 01, 2016 5:45 am

Hello Amie,

I have never previously dosed with iodine, I only recently started as it was the one element that I could think of that could be depleted in the system.

The shrimp moult on time, and the eggs are retained on the larvae. Apart from the canabalism of a freshly moulted shrimp by tank mates, I have not had any issues with the adults stage. The shrimp appear more or less developed in the eggs, and although I have not verified I assume they are alive or at a maximum died at or shortly after the adult moulted

Hopefully the picture of the species I am having the issue with works this time
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
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Re: Peppermint shrimp moulting prior to larvae release

Postby Hordeumvulgare » Wed Jun 01, 2016 5:49 am

Sorry "the eggs are retained on the moult" to clear up any confusion
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Re: Peppermint shrimp moulting prior to larvae release

Postby Amie » Wed Jun 01, 2016 2:30 pm

If the shrimp are molting every 7-10 days, stop dosing iodine. Too much iodine in the tank will start killing your invertebrates, including the shrimp. If a shrimp has reached its full size, it should not be molting more than once a month, imo. (Anyone disagree? Or have additional thoughts on this?) If you are using a good salt, and do small water changes regularly, you should never have to dose with iodine. I don't know if this is causing the issues you are seeing with the eggs, but it could definitely be compromising the health of the adult shrimp.
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Peppermint shrimp moulting prior to larvae release

Postby TBrewerton » Fri Jun 03, 2016 7:45 am

Amie wrote:If the shrimp are molting every 7-10 days, stop dosing iodine. Too much iodine in the tank will start killing your invertebrates, including the shrimp. If a shrimp has reached its full size, it should not be molting more than once a month, imo. (Anyone disagree? Or have additional thoughts on this?) If you are using a good salt, and do small water changes regularly, you should never have to dose with iodine. I don't know if this is causing the issues you are seeing with the eggs, but it could definitely be compromising the health of the adult shrimp.


In Aprils "how to breed and train peppermint shrimp" she states a healthy shrimp will moult every 10 days


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Re: Peppermint shrimp moulting prior to larvae release

Postby Hordeumvulgare » Sun Jun 05, 2016 6:19 am

Success!

Well, not full blown, but close enough, have approximately 10 larvae.

This occurred after I transferred the shrimp to a stand alone tank (75 L) filled with macroalgae, sponges, oysters and other smaller shrimp species (unknown spp, associated with sargassum spp macroalgae from tropics). I woke up to see a shrimp exoskeleton without eggs attached and saw several shrimp larvae swimming around, then used black plastic to cover the tank sides and a flashlight to concentrate them at the surface. I assume the rest were destroyed by the filtration system.

After all the changes I made its difficult to determine what change or changes made the difference

Factors that may have resulted in the larvae being released prior to moulting (natural scenario) are
- Diet, shrimp switched from prawn to fish based diet; Perhaps a prawn based diet may directly influence the hormone balance of the peppermint shrimps, they may have similar hormone types as they are more closely related to each other than to fish (its a long shot). Also the tank environment may provide more copepods, amphipods and other marine life that are not present in the larger system
- Water quality; 1. this may come in the form of iodide dosing, 2. or from replacing around one third of the tanks water with NSW, but this was half way through the current incubation (approx five days ago), 3. increasing the tank alkalinity and hence decreasing the Ca levels, as my tanks had high Ca and low KH which i have now fixed (although I havent checked numbers) 4. Decreased ammonia concentration, as the 75 L tank they are in has <0.1 mg / L ammonia versus the 0.5 - 1 mg / L in the previous system.
- Temperature; the temperature has dropped where I live so I can now easily maintain the tank at 25 - 26 C versus the previous approx. 28 C in my previous attempts
- Water flow; the 75 L tank has a good circular flow motion, water in top sucked out bottom

Its only early days, and its a little early to count my chickens, but with a new enthusiasm i know plan to

Transfer the shrimp to the Kreisel system, use only NSW as replacement water, feed only fish and squid, and maintain lighting in the system to allow macroalgae growth. Theoretically the shrimp larvae should enter the Kreisel section straight after spawning. Hopefully with good maintenance goodwater quality can be maintained in the system, but time will tell. I assume that this method will mean that feeding inert diets is out of the question and only artemia and copepods, will be required
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Re: Peppermint shrimp moulting prior to larvae release

Postby Luis A M » Wed Jun 08, 2016 3:24 pm

Congrats :D Your pic shows L.wurdemanni.Are they imported or locally raised?
Could you show/describe your kreisel?.Why couldn´t you use inert food?
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Re: Peppermint shrimp moulting prior to larvae release

Postby Hordeumvulgare » Thu Jun 09, 2016 8:33 pm

Hola Luis,

Thanks for the species identification. I have a publication on this, the image can be brought up with a google search, but was still confused. I get the feeling they are locally culktured (australia), but not certain.

The Kreisel is pretty standard. I am using a 45 L tank, the Kreisel itself is a piece of 225 mm pipe that has been cut once lengthwise and a heat gun used to stretch it out (make the circle bigger). Calculated volume is approx 20 - 25 L, depending on how much water in the tank. I had an airlift system but saw that it was not keeping the larvae in suspensions so am now using a small water pump. A mesh to allow outflow is 150 um, which is a modification from the original 72 um that I used which quickly became clogged (but was the only mesh I had at the time

Ironically the peppermint shrimp larvae are actually easy to keep in suspension, and as it turns I collected two types of crustacean larvae from my tank. The second has to be either hermit crab or barnacles. The larvae have a kind of shell like structure over them, are attracted to light, but are much more dermersal than the peppermint shrimp larvae. The are still alive in the Kreisel so eat either algae and/or artemia nauplii.

I dont want to feed inert diets as if I put the adults in the Kreisel tank, this will lead to water quality problems.

Other than this I have no problem with it

Anyway some peppermint shrimp larvae are still alive, which is pretty good for a first attempt
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Re: Peppermint shrimp moulting prior to larvae release

Postby Luis A M » Fri Jun 10, 2016 12:19 pm

Good luck with them! :D
You can check your mistery larvae against pics of hermit and barnacles larvae,or else post pics here.
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Re: Peppermint shrimp moulting prior to larvae release

Postby Luis A M » Fri Jun 10, 2016 12:21 pm

duplicate
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Re: Peppermint shrimp moulting prior to larvae release

Postby Hordeumvulgare » Thu Jun 23, 2016 6:31 am

Update....

Since my last post, I moved my remaining two peppermint shrimp to the delivery side of my Kreisel tank (water flows from this side directly into the Kreisel cylinder). I maintained the shrimp in NSW with 12:12 h light cycle (LEDs) at 27-28 C, with feedings of chopped fish and prawn, along with artemia.

Shortly after moving them I awoke to a Kreisel full of peppermint shrimp larvae, followed by a second batch about three days later. The shrimp are currently 10 or 7 days old, and appear to be going strong. Based on previous posts by Luis describing peppermint shrimp development, the most advanced larvae are at around Zoea 5 stage, but havent looked under the microscope. I got more larvae today from another spawn, so the saga continues. There has been no mass mortality to date, which I attribute to constant cleaning of the tank bottom and regular and large water changes (50% day)

Keep you updated
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Re: Peppermint shrimp moulting prior to larvae release

Postby Luis A M » Mon Jul 18, 2016 7:39 pm

You can tell Z1 to Z4 without a scope,just bare eye or a lens.Keeping it clean seems to help,particularly if hydroids do contaminate the larval tank.
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Re: Peppermint shrimp moulting prior to larvae release

Postby chris melb » Mon Sep 19, 2016 8:47 am

Luis A M wrote:Congrats :D Your pic shows L.wurdemanni.Are they imported or locally raised?
Could you show/describe your kreisel?.Why couldn´t you use inert food?


Hi Luis,

Not questioning your ID but can I ask what are the visual differences between between L.wurdemanni and L.vittata? I ask because in Australia I believe (but maybe wrong) we only have L.vittata. We also can't import invertebrates so I assumed that we only have the peppermint shrimp species available to us. I've found this useful reference for peppermint but this only focuses on Western Atlantic Peppermint and there is no mention of L.vittata http://decapoda.nhm.org/pdfs/27306/27306.pdf

Cheers

Chris
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Re: Peppermint shrimp moulting prior to larvae release

Postby Luis A M » Mon Sep 19, 2016 3:29 pm

Chrys,I can´t tell,we never see L.vittata in this part of the world.Some pictures of L.vittata show wider spaces between the red lines and whitish,rather than transparent.You must compare the description of L.wurdemanni in Andy´s paper with some good description of L.vittata,like https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... _of_Russia
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Re: Peppermint shrimp moulting prior to larvae release

Postby chris melb » Tue Sep 20, 2016 7:39 am

Thanks Luis, your knowledge re. Lysmata is far greater than mine. I struggle to tell them apart myself but would now love to know what we have! Particularly, given your recent experience that not all peps are easy (i.e., L.ankeri). The ones I constantly see here don't appear (to me) to have the abdomen of L.wurdemanni or (at least to my eyes) the markings of L.vittata described in the paper you linked.

I typically see the ones pictured here:http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10084506&postcount=9 and http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10084419&postcount=8.
I notice a thinner abdomen (concave underside) and transversal saddle marks.

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Re: Peppermint shrimp moulting prior to larvae release

Postby Luis A M » Tue Sep 20, 2016 1:18 pm

Chrys,you probably have vittata,the common peppermint found in the Indopacific.Compare the side view of both species;in vittata stripes (vitatta=striped) run all the way up to the bottom,while in wurdemanni,at mid height,they are replaced by oblique short dashes.Count the dorsal spines in the rostrum,4-6 in wurdemanni and 7 in vittata.This is easier to do in a molt. :wink:
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Re: Peppermint shrimp moulting prior to larvae release

Postby Luis A M » Wed Sep 21, 2016 3:15 pm

Luis A M wrote:Congrats :D Your pic shows L.wurdemanni.Are they imported or locally raised?
Could you show/describe your kreisel?.Why couldn´t you use inert food?

Since the pic was taken in Australia,I must stand corrected :oops: It probably is L vittata.
We need a lateral view,as stripes go all the way down in vittata,but stop at mid height,as explained above,in the Atlantic species.
This is what I guess now,but we need more lateral pics of vittata to confirm. :?
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Re: Peppermint shrimp moulting prior to larvae release

Postby chris melb » Fri Sep 23, 2016 7:18 am

I can help with that. I will try and get some pics his weekend :).
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Re: Peppermint shrimp moulting prior to larvae release

Postby chris melb » Fri Sep 23, 2016 8:50 am

Here we are :)

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