Larval L.debelius

Postby Luis A M » Sun Aug 03, 2008 3:34 pm

Starting a new run,with a nice batch of larvae,hatched at day 15 post molt.
Protocol is now bbs; plus Oto B1 since Z4.
Luis
User avatar
Luis A M
Moderator
 
Posts: 5630
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 2:34 pm
Location: Buenos Aires,Argentina

Postby Luis A M » Wed Aug 06, 2008 3:38 pm

Z2 at day 4,as expected (a new stage every 4 days) 8)
Luis
User avatar
Luis A M
Moderator
 
Posts: 5630
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 2:34 pm
Location: Buenos Aires,Argentina

Postby Luis A M » Mon Aug 18, 2008 3:04 am

Dissapeared at 8th day. :(
Starting new run today,many larvae.
Luis
User avatar
Luis A M
Moderator
 
Posts: 5630
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 2:34 pm
Location: Buenos Aires,Argentina

Re:

Postby Luis A M » Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:53 pm

Luis A M wrote:Dissapeared at 8th day. :(
Starting new run today,many larvae.

Which again dissapeared suddenly! :shock:
Something unknown and very bad is going on!.I plan to check for Vibrio...
Luis
User avatar
Luis A M
Moderator
 
Posts: 5630
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 2:34 pm
Location: Buenos Aires,Argentina

Hello Luis

Postby Aquazoa » Fri Oct 10, 2008 1:04 am

Lysmata peppermint breeder Porter Betts here......this is my first post on this incredible site. I have followed your work off and on in the past few years with amboinensis.....wow, I'm like a kid in a candy store here. I was turned on to this site by colleagues at the MACNA here in Atlanta and I restumbled upon it doing a google search on Moina for SW.
For the past 3 years I have been raising H. erectus which has occupied all my time. I want to get back to debelius but my apartment is so small and the results with horses was so much more rewarding.....well.....The very best of luck with your debelius. Forgive my ignorance, but I know what bbs is of course, but what is OTO for foods?
Lord, I haven't even made it to the seahorse forum yet. Whew! I'm really looking forward to spending a lot of time on here.

Porter Betts
Aquazoa
 
Posts: 21
Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2008 12:23 am
Location: Atlanta, Georgia, USA

Re: Hello Luis

Postby LethargicCoder » Fri Oct 10, 2008 7:54 am

Aquazoa wrote:what is OTO for foods?


Oto is short form used for Otohime. Check out these links for descriptions:

http://www.reed-store.com/?category=53&subcategory=39
http://www.reed-mariculture.com/otohime/

-Eric
LethargicCoder
 
Posts: 163
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2007 9:28 am
Location: Lr. Sackville, NS, Canada

My Challenges with debelius

Postby Aquazoa » Fri Oct 10, 2008 12:52 pm

First, thank you for the tip on OTO. I will try that.
I wanted to enumerate the bottlenecks I've had with debelius. Since I've been concentrating on seahorses in recent years I cannot say I wouldn't have been successful with Fire shrimp by now so these observations are from "where I left off" so to speak.....
1. Yes, hydrozoans are a pernicious problem. I actually have some growing on my juvenile seahorses' bodies at this time! Siphoning and scraping them out seems to be the only rearing tank solution. Interestingly in one instance I housed adult peppermints in a header tank where they ate the polyps there upstream of the larvae.
2. Kreisel screen cleanings. If I wasn't constantly brushing the kreisel screen (2 or 3 times daily) it would clog, water would rise in the tank and larvae would apparently get pinned against it. I have always used a bubble wand positioned at the base of the screen with the bubbles doing a fair job of gliding across the screen at 45 degree angle keeping it clean also.
3. Finickyness of L. debelius zoeae. The only foods aside from artemia I could get them to eat was grated shrimp, squid, mussels, etc......The problem here being the gluelike nature of the food sticking to all the sides of the tank. It can be kept in CHILLED cups of saltwater in the fridge until addition to the larval tank and that keeps the particles separate. Although my kreisel keeps most frozen foods suspended for quite some time this stuff was a real challenge to keep in the water column for larvae. I have rebuilt my kreisel now with better flow characteristics and small inflow tubes built into the corners of the tank to blow aggregates of food back up so again, these are recent improvements that might make a difference. Also I have a technique of adding frozen foods for the first 2 or 3 hours of the photoperiod to compel larval acceptance before any live items (artemia) and that seems to show results. It has with my horses.
I want to build a screened upweller with vertically mounted spraybars tracking back and forth behind the screens continuously blowing them clean (it does work.....I've tried a prototype before). Of course who has the time or the space?? I haven't tried Golden Pearls food or the OTO but if these items have good suspension properties they may be great.
4. Settlement Cues. Seems we still don't have a magic bullet here but I figured coralline algae covered vertically hanging acrylic plates may work. After all I read coralline algae is like "chemical flypaper" to coral planulae.
I was able to get debelius larvae to six weeks. I really didn't have any problems with early stage zoeae. It was the later stages and their nutrition issues beyond artemia that challenged me. Of course experimenting with wild plankton is impossible in Atlanta so that may have also been a detractor. The Palmtag/Holt paper of course was a beacon of hope to spur me on and made me feel that success was possible. It may yet be considering the success I see on here.

Porter Betts
Aquazoa
 
Posts: 21
Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2008 12:23 am
Location: Atlanta, Georgia, USA

Re: Larval L.debelius

Postby PaulG » Sat May 16, 2009 9:09 pm

Luis,

Are you still working with these guys?

Have you made any further progress?


TIA
PaulG
User avatar
PaulG
 
Posts: 1127
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:44 am

Re: Larval L.debelius

Postby Luis A M » Sat May 16, 2009 9:11 pm

No,I´m waiting for them to show in LFS. :roll:
Luis
User avatar
Luis A M
Moderator
 
Posts: 5630
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 2:34 pm
Location: Buenos Aires,Argentina

Re: Larval L.debelius

Postby PaulG » Wed Oct 06, 2010 4:25 am

More so a bit of a *bump* coz I'm sick of having to go to page 2 to re-review this thread :lol:

Luis, have you been able to find any more broodstock?
User avatar
PaulG
 
Posts: 1127
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:44 am

Re: Larval L.debelius

Postby Aquazoa » Wed Oct 06, 2010 10:08 am

Hello Guys,
My apologies for being gone for ever so long. I've been working at a new marine aquarium warehouse here in the Atlanta area. Still raising H. erectus.
One thing I wanted to mention that I've discovered. All my aquaria are connected and my Lysmata broodstock tank is upstream from my kreisel so that larval spawns are automatically collected overnight, showing up in the kreisel the next morning. Since my tanks are all on one system, amphipods have colonized my kreisel in high numbers. At first I thought that was fine but upon attempting to inoculate the tanks with Tigriopus copepods (which I figured would be an ideal live food for later larvae and seahorses) I noticed that they'd be all gone by two days later and that the big mama amphipods were red from eating them! It would appear that large adult amphipods come out at night and predate on small early stage crustacea that they can catch along the upper walls of the larval tank. In future runs I will drain the kreisel and flush with bleach and/or FW to rid it of those pesky amphipod squatters!
Aquazoa
 
Posts: 21
Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2008 12:23 am
Location: Atlanta, Georgia, USA

Re: Larval L.debelius

Postby Luis A M » Sat Jun 21, 2014 6:01 pm

TIME FOR AN UPDATE! :D
I recently bought a couple pairs of debelius.Checking their tanks at night,I found some few larvae close to the front glass of the adult´s tank.I could collect 6,and one more on the following morning.Finding so few larvae usually means that they were hatching prematurily,heralding the big hatch of the following night.Or else that they had hatched later in the night and were all eaten,except for these 7. :?
But a closer look showed that they are Z2,meaning that the had survived there for about 4 days!?. :shock:
Luis
User avatar
Luis A M
Moderator
 
Posts: 5630
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 2:34 pm
Location: Buenos Aires,Argentina

Re: Larval L.debelius

Postby Luis A M » Thu Jun 26, 2014 3:02 pm

I collected a nice batch of larvae and will try to raise them.Hatched 13 days after molt.
As you can see in my old experience with this species,I could never have some thru meta,though I was very close! :evil:
Luis
User avatar
Luis A M
Moderator
 
Posts: 5630
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 2:34 pm
Location: Buenos Aires,Argentina

Re: Larval L.debelius

Postby Luis A M » Wed Jul 02, 2014 2:32 pm

Z2 at 3 dph
Z3 at 6 dph
Luis
User avatar
Luis A M
Moderator
 
Posts: 5630
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 2:34 pm
Location: Buenos Aires,Argentina

Re: Larval L.debelius

Postby Luis A M » Tue Aug 05, 2014 2:27 pm

Z4 at 9 days and Z5 at 12 days.They change stage every 3 days.
They hatch 12 days after molt.
Luis
User avatar
Luis A M
Moderator
 
Posts: 5630
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 2:34 pm
Location: Buenos Aires,Argentina

Re: Larval L.debelius

Postby Aquazoa » Tue Aug 19, 2014 10:23 am

Hello Luis,
I've gone through a lot of changes since I was raising peppermints and seahorses. I moved out of my tiny studio finally (worst possible place for a miniature shrimp hatchery, lol) and am living in a cool basement in a house in Midtown Atlanta with a concrete floor and a drain. Been here a year. I still have my reef, but it is just a 75 and 55 connected to a common sump. It has eutrophic problems, and I only keep soft corals, but my fish are gangbusters (Darwin Clowns, Regal Tang, Royal Gramma, Majestic Angel, and an Acreichthys tomentosus filefish). I got myself an associate's degree in medical assisting and am on the job hunt, about to take my certification exam. I will return to my work with L. debelius however, as the seahorses have the one intractable issue of males getting pouch bloat...it always happens, and just breaks my heart. Compared to them, raising peppermints and perhaps a few fire shrimps seems more straightforward, plus the fact they aren't susceptible to Uronema (or other parasites).
Issues I faced when I last worked with debelius had to do with amphipods colonizing the larval tank, grated frozen food suspension & acceptance (& phyto presence). Was going to try the Otohime...
Andy Rhyne stopped by the warehouse where I used to work and we discussed the apparent fact that when dealing with L. debelius and amboinensis, you really need much larger tanks. I easily got 250 peppermints to meta in a 15 gal. but it seems to get any higher numbers of fire shrimps to meta you need a lot bigger space, at least that applies for amboinensis as their larvae get quite large.
I'm going to Bora Bora in 2 weeks for my birthday. I will try to visit back here more often!
Porter Betts
Aquazoa
 
Posts: 21
Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2008 12:23 am
Location: Atlanta, Georgia, USA

Re: Larval L.debelius

Postby Aquazoa » Tue Aug 19, 2014 5:01 pm

I wonder if decapod zoeae could tolerate fenbendazole treatment for hydroids (suggested to me by a fellow breeder for horses). I know it's an antihelmintic and should be possible for seahorses occasionally. Probably risky for inverts. What about a specialized tank (like a basic upweller design) with removable wall panels or screens to remove the hydroids?
I wonder if other live meroplankton in the proper size range (trochophores, veligers, barnacle larvae as mentioned by Wittenrich?) could propel those higher numbers of debelius to metamorphosis? That is if you can find them!
Aquazoa
 
Posts: 21
Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2008 12:23 am
Location: Atlanta, Georgia, USA

Re: Larval L.debelius

Postby Aquazoa » Tue Aug 19, 2014 7:14 pm

Please don't think I'm manic (although i think I am to some extent)...
I spent my childhood on the NC coast (Outer Banks) and I have seawater in my veins...bivalves and barnacles are some of the commonest
coastal epifauna (look at any dock piling). It ought to be fairly simple to rig up some plastic tubs and get a larval food generating support system for
a difficult ornamental shrimp rearing program, once we find the ideal species our cleaners really love...mollusk gametes, barnacle larvae, echinoplutei (I had Arbacia milk my tanks a few times)...even just this summer I had a population explosion of little thorny oysters in my reef. Food collection can be honed to a
downstream collecting tank (with plankton screening to retain larval food in question) at night with a nightlight and other pumps off, etc...just some thoughts. And of course a phyto food web base to support the zooplankton generation. Obviously it will be much easier if you live on the coast. If I was living there and researching cleaner shrimp larviculture, I would surely collect Cirripedia colonies.
My kreisel is the popular Greve (Jelly) style, and my last one is a work of art (though sitting dry now) and when running is amazing at keeping stuff suspended. The super ideal black screened cylindrico-conical upweller I've envisioned is yet to be born. It would likely have inner and outer walls, the inner walls as black screening and easily removable for cleaning without bothering the zoeae. Hydroids begone!!!!
I concur that kreisels are not the final answer to the remaining hurtles (that is food & settlement cues), but I have seen how much kinder to my peppermints mine was, and the higher numbers and shorter durations to metamorphosis were noteworthy. I would embrace any advancement as such.
Porter
Aquazoa
 
Posts: 21
Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2008 12:23 am
Location: Atlanta, Georgia, USA

Re: Larval L.debelius

Postby Aquazoa » Thu Aug 21, 2014 6:56 am

How about this?
The screened cylinder sits in a larger tank, near a glass wall (for internal viewing, and the wall panel of the cylinder nearest this wall has a clear acrylic window to view the larvae. The rest of the cylinder consists of inner and outer walls, with the inner walls a fine black mesh on removable longitudinal panels. The outer walls of the cylinder are fixed, with a somewhat larger mesh for larval containment. The inner wall panels are easily removable daily for cleaning and hydroid management (the acrylic window will just have to be cleaned with a brush tool or rigid airline tubing, sorry!)...
Ok, so outside the cylinder are vertically mounted spraybars aimed at the outer cylinder wall to regularly dislodge attached pieces of frozen foods inside. Whether or not an inflow diffuser plate is even needed at the bottom of the cylinder will be a subject for experiment. The whole cylinder could possibly be rounded at the bottom and the vertical spraybars on the outside provide all the needed inflow...
If feeding later stage larvae is the challenge, collect other decapod nauplii from support systems (new hatch peppermint nauplii, Stenopus nauplii, Penaeus nauplii (??), crab nauplii, Uca (fiddler crab) nauplii...am I just rambling here??
Remember the Palmtag/Holt article? Screened walls of their cylinders facilitated larvae grabbing on (hint...meta...)!
Aquazoa
 
Posts: 21
Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2008 12:23 am
Location: Atlanta, Georgia, USA

Re: Larval L.debelius

Postby Aquazoa » Thu Aug 21, 2014 7:00 am

Oh wait, almost forgot...the entire cylinder slowly revolves, so the vertically mounted spraybars slowly track around the entire surface of the outside of the cylinder, dislodging attached food (could be a problem for larvae hanging on...plenty of experimentation to do here).
Aquazoa
 
Posts: 21
Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2008 12:23 am
Location: Atlanta, Georgia, USA

Re: Larval L.debelius

Postby Luis A M » Thu Aug 21, 2014 1:44 pm

Hmmm :?
I never liked Palmtag cylinders,even if Andy R. was fan of them at the time...I had tried downwellers and they are a pain;they get dirty and clog.Upwellers,as described by Calado and Rhyne are much better.They keep larvae and food in suspension and allow for flushing of uneaten food.They come as "season one"cylindro-conical and "season two" cylindro-spherical (said by them to be better).
Larval debelius seem much more difficult than peppers.They die,or mark time,or show missing legs under the exact same conditions on which boggessi thrive.Mortality is not continuous,but peaks at molting time.In the past I related it to the presence of hydroids.But this time I had no hydroids in the larval tanks... :?
Luis
User avatar
Luis A M
Moderator
 
Posts: 5630
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 2:34 pm
Location: Buenos Aires,Argentina

Re: Larval L.debelius

Postby Amie » Mon Aug 25, 2014 1:24 am

Luis A M wrote: a closer look showed that they are Z2,meaning that the had survived there for about 4 days!?. :shock:

That's pretty awesome!

Do you still have larvae? I always thought that debelius was equally as hard as the amboinensis.
User avatar
Amie
Moderator
 
Posts: 2029
Joined: Sat May 12, 2007 7:57 pm
Location: US
State/Region: Utah
Country: USA

Re: Larval L.debelius

Postby Luis A M » Tue Aug 26, 2014 3:06 pm

Yes,I have several batches,the older are some few Z8,one month old.
Yes,they are about the same,only that amboinensis larvae grow larger and take 5 months to meta.
It seems that all shrimps are difficult to rear,other than peppermints :?
Luis
User avatar
Luis A M
Moderator
 
Posts: 5630
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 2:34 pm
Location: Buenos Aires,Argentina

Previous

Return to Lysmata - Cleaner & Peppermint Shrimps



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests

cron