[i]Elacatinus oceanops[/i] breeding log - Dr Hsu

[i]Elacatinus oceanops[/i] breeding log - Dr Hsu

Postby DrHsu » Sun Feb 03, 2008 11:30 am

Well...my neons finally decided to pair up properly and spawn :D

I had these 4 neons that were pretty much happily co-existing together for a few months last year in a 2 ft with my black caps. They seemed to form 2 pairs, but I was never sure about it as they seemed to switch "partners" and none really had any territory, unlike what I have read and heard about them. Finally late last yr, I noticed one being bullied into a corner (easily noticed since it's color was very much more faded and non-neon cf the others). Pulled it out and soon another was in the same boat. So....2 left but they really weren't looking like they were doing anything!

Sometime late Jan, I noticed that one was spending more time in a 1/2 inch pvc tube and finally noticed some eggs on the roof of the tube 2 Thursdays ago! Couldn't be sure when they were laid as I wasn't monitoring the tube closely. However, after reading Luis' post that his hatch in 4 days, I decided to take the tube out Sunday thinking they would hatch that night.

Well....nothing happened Sun night so I just left the tube with a light bubbling through it hoping they would hatch the next day. Mon night came and went and nothing every night till I found larvae yesterday morning!!! :shock:

I guess what happened was that the original clutch must have hatched last Sat night, and they spawned again Sunday morning! Sounds about right since hatching on Friday night would make the incubation about 5-6 days. What suprised me was that the simple bubbling through the tube worked - you could pretty much call this artificial incubation as there was pretty much no parental care in this case.

Not a large hatch - maybe 20-30? Difficult to really tell as they are so transparent. However, I'm pretty pleased since it's only the pairs second clutch (presumably) and artificially incubated!

Hoping they will survive as I don't have rotifers on hand (just started a new culture yesterday so hopefully will have enough in a couple of days) but I do have a good amount of ciliates in there and it does seem in the pics that they are ingesting some.....Pics to follow in the next post!
Li Chieh

Otherwise known as marinebetta in most marine forums.....

.....................................................................

"It's what you learn after you think you know it all..that matters" - Anon
User avatar
DrHsu
 
Posts: 704
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2007 10:27 am
Location: Singapore

Postby DrHsu » Sun Feb 03, 2008 11:41 am

First, the simple set up I used - just set up the tube at an angle and passed the airline into the bottom such that the bubbles will rise up gently along the tube. The eggs were orientated to the bottom of the tube so there is no direct contact (estimated).
Image

Pics taken today of the larvae - surprisingly large for the size of the fish. IMO about the same size but stockier than Royal Grammas, and definitely larger than Priolepis nocturna larvae
Image

I believe there is something in their stomachs but cannot see what it is clearly.
Image

Image

Image

Image

Image[/i]
Li Chieh

Otherwise known as marinebetta in most marine forums.....

.....................................................................

"It's what you learn after you think you know it all..that matters" - Anon
User avatar
DrHsu
 
Posts: 704
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2007 10:27 am
Location: Singapore

Postby Luis A M » Sun Feb 03, 2008 6:40 pm

excelent pics! :D Congrats!
I think I said 8 days :?
Remember to try the shaking trick if they don´t hatch.
I am keeping a dozen of F1 young adults in a 10 g and don´t see signs of pairing or territorial struggle either :? Wonder if I shouldn´t try to split them in smaller groups :?
Luis
User avatar
Luis A M
Moderator
 
Posts: 5630
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 2:34 pm
Location: Buenos Aires,Argentina

Postby FuEl » Mon Feb 04, 2008 9:50 am

Well done~! I lost my spawning pair of yellow neons after they died of starvation when I cut off on the bbs. So did'nt really get to play with neon goby larvae. :(

Anyway if you urgently require lots of rotifers I have much at hand (I always run at least 3 cultures to minimise the chances of crashes). Just let me know when you would be around my area (east). :)
I love Artemac!
User avatar
FuEl
 
Posts: 1186
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2007 11:23 pm
Location: Singapore

Re:

Postby DrHsu » Mon Feb 04, 2008 10:45 am

FuEl wrote:Well done~! I lost my spawning pair of yellow neons after they died of starvation when I cut off on the bbs. So did'nt really get to play with neon goby larvae. :(

Anyway if you urgently require lots of rotifers I have much at hand (I always run at least 3 cultures to minimise the chances of crashes). Just let me know when you would be around my area (east). :)

Alamak! Should have posted earlier....then I would have dropped over to pick them up on the way home. Next time I'll be there is Wed - should have a decent amount of rots by then...

Did you not wean your neons to other diets?? Generally they're pretty greedy and will eat most things..... I have 2 of the same sex....need to pick up a few more to see if I can get them paired up....
Li Chieh

Otherwise known as marinebetta in most marine forums.....

.....................................................................

"It's what you learn after you think you know it all..that matters" - Anon
User avatar
DrHsu
 
Posts: 704
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2007 10:27 am
Location: Singapore

Re:

Postby DrHsu » Mon Feb 04, 2008 10:52 am

Luis A M wrote:excelent pics! :D Congrats!
I think I said 8 days :?
Remember to try the shaking trick if they don´t hatch.
I am keeping a dozen of F1 young adults in a 10 g and don´t see signs of pairing or territorial struggle either :? Wonder if I shouldn´t try to split them in smaller groups :?

Luis,

This is where I got the 4 days - from "G. oceanops - finally a first nest" :D
Luis A M wrote:
Luis A M wrote:4 days,I think? :?
But wait,I have a new nest,will check more accurately :D

Confirmed;4 days :D


No matter - just a guideline for absolute min incubation, I suppose...
Li Chieh

Otherwise known as marinebetta in most marine forums.....

.....................................................................

"It's what you learn after you think you know it all..that matters" - Anon
User avatar
DrHsu
 
Posts: 704
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2007 10:27 am
Location: Singapore

Re:

Postby Luis A M » Tue Feb 05, 2008 10:48 am

DrHsu wrote:
Luis A M wrote:excelent pics! :D Congrats!
I think I said 8 days :?
Remember to try the shaking trick if they don´t hatch.
I am keeping a dozen of F1 young adults in a 10 g and don´t see signs of pairing or territorial struggle either :? Wonder if I shouldn´t try to split them in smaller groups :?

Luis,

This is where I got the 4 days - from "G. oceanops - finally a first nest" :D
Luis A M wrote:
Luis A M wrote:4 days,I think? :?
But wait,I have a new nest,will check more accurately :D

Confirmed;4 days :D


No matter - just a guideline for absolute min incubation, I suppose...

Please link the thread,I think I was meaning Gobiodon :?
Luis
User avatar
Luis A M
Moderator
 
Posts: 5630
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 2:34 pm
Location: Buenos Aires,Argentina

Postby DrHsu » Tue Feb 05, 2008 11:09 am

Luis: here's the link http://www.marinebreeder.org/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=1489

Updated pics: Day 4 larvae. The "seem" to be larger, and definitely more responsive to external stimuli (movement!) so are getting a little more difficult to get nice sharp pics. Already put in some rotifers but really very little compared to my usual so am not sure there is enough in there for them to pick out.

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image
Li Chieh

Otherwise known as marinebetta in most marine forums.....

.....................................................................

"It's what you learn after you think you know it all..that matters" - Anon
User avatar
DrHsu
 
Posts: 704
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2007 10:27 am
Location: Singapore

Re:

Postby FuEl » Tue Feb 05, 2008 12:21 pm

DrHsu wrote:Did you not wean your neons to other diets?? Generally they're pretty greedy and will eat most things..... I have 2 of the same sex....need to pick up a few more to see if I can get them paired up....


The neons I keep are weird. Yes they do take other feeds like cyclopeeze and even food meant for postlarval shrimp. However, I find it very very hard to fatten them to the point of breeding condition without the use of bbs. I thought feeding bbs in the long run would be harmful to the gobies as such I cut off the bbs. Although they were eating other foods, they just kept losing weight until they died. :cry:
I love Artemac!
User avatar
FuEl
 
Posts: 1186
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2007 11:23 pm
Location: Singapore

Postby danch » Tue Feb 05, 2008 2:16 pm

How are you taking these pictures? Macro mode and a steady hand? Flash or no flash?
roti-whatnow?
danch
 
Posts: 118
Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2007 4:11 pm
Location: Milwaukee, WI

Re:

Postby DrHsu » Tue Feb 05, 2008 9:21 pm

danch wrote:How are you taking these pictures? Macro mode and a steady hand? Flash or no flash?

I'm using a Nikon D70 with 60mm micro, SB-800 flash. Handheld with some support from a stool. Synch in manual at 1/500 and f22. Prefocus to max magnification and wait for the larvae to come into view, and adjust focus by moving back/forth as required. A tripod would be better but too much trouble to set it up! :)
Li Chieh

Otherwise known as marinebetta in most marine forums.....

.....................................................................

"It's what you learn after you think you know it all..that matters" - Anon
User avatar
DrHsu
 
Posts: 704
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2007 10:27 am
Location: Singapore

Postby David M » Tue Feb 05, 2008 11:31 pm

Mine hatch on the 8th evening but I can force the hatch a little earlier in the day with the shaking technique if I want to. I have only tried twice but can't get the bulk of them past a few days. I had one lone survivor to 28 days still not colored or settled. My pair is not spawning as they are being harrased by a pair of black ocellaris that I assume are getting aggressive because they too are ready to spawn. By the end of the week I will have enough tanks to seperate them and then hopefully begin seriously working with the gobies.

Beautiful photos and you made a decision for me, thanks. That is the exact camera/ lens/ flash I have been looking at. Now I'll buy it :D
Seahorse Aquatics Current Availability List: http://www.sdreefs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39000
David M
 
Posts: 977
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2007 11:10 am
Location: San Diego ( La Mesa)

Re:

Postby DrHsu » Wed Feb 06, 2008 12:11 am

David M wrote:Mine hatch on the 8th evening but I can force the hatch a little earlier in the day with the shaking technique if I want to. I have only tried twice but can't get the bulk of them past a few days. I had one lone survivor to 28 days still not colored or settled. My pair is not spawning as they are being harrased by a pair of black ocellaris that I assume are getting aggressive because they too are ready to spawn. By the end of the week I will have enough tanks to seperate them and then hopefully begin seriously working with the gobies.

Beautiful photos and you made a decision for me, thanks. That is the exact camera/ lens/ flash I have been looking at. Now I'll buy it :D

I think my pair only started getting into the mood after I removed a pretty agro argi from the tank (Argis must be one of the most aggressive dwarf angels around. Even though they are small, they seem to not get along with ALL fish!).

David: unless you're getting a pretty good deal on the D70, you may want to look at a newer model - D70s or D80. I think the D80 is still pretty pricey but you might be able to get them or a D70s cheap from upgraders to the new D300 - I'm seriously looking at that one myself!
Li Chieh

Otherwise known as marinebetta in most marine forums.....

.....................................................................

"It's what you learn after you think you know it all..that matters" - Anon
User avatar
DrHsu
 
Posts: 704
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2007 10:27 am
Location: Singapore

Postby DrHsu » Wed Feb 06, 2008 7:07 am

Sorry guys....it's the holidays here for the next few days so I'm afraid you will have to put up with more of my neon baby pictures :D

Day 5 today and managed to get a few decent pics. Looks like they have grown somewhat and definitely have food in their stomachs.

This pic shows a faint outline on the dorsal region and around the tail - fins? The bigger smudge in the lower middle is likely a rotifer; gives you an idea of their size.
Image

Dorsal view: Looks like some increased pigmentation around the white spot on the caudal region.
Image

Another relatively clear shot showing a little more internal detail and the blackish pigmentation coming in.
Image

I believe I have adjusted this pic to actual size so the larvae should more or less be actual size on your screen. (I estimated the image to be life size when taken. ie 1:1 meaning the actual size is captured on the camera sensor. Adjusted the full image to the actual sensor size, 23.7 x 15.6 mm, and it results in the pic below - let me know if the assumptions are wrong!) BTW all the other pics are more or less 100% crops
Image

edit: Hmmm...I think it's still not quite life size. If you adjust the pic to 23.7x15.6 mm then you should see it actual size.
Li Chieh

Otherwise known as marinebetta in most marine forums.....

.....................................................................

"It's what you learn after you think you know it all..that matters" - Anon
User avatar
DrHsu
 
Posts: 704
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2007 10:27 am
Location: Singapore

Day 7 pictures

Postby DrHsu » Fri Feb 08, 2008 9:36 am

Today's picture installment :D

Image

Amazing....there's really nothing visible between the two eyes :)
Image

Even though they don't do the typical "s" shape before striking, they do the occasional bend in the tail region as seen here.
Image

Just did a water change this evening - hope they don't conk off :)
Li Chieh

Otherwise known as marinebetta in most marine forums.....

.....................................................................

"It's what you learn after you think you know it all..that matters" - Anon
User avatar
DrHsu
 
Posts: 704
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2007 10:27 am
Location: Singapore

Re:

Postby Luis A M » Sat Feb 09, 2008 4:41 pm


It is the 8th night,see:http://www.marinebreeder.org/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=1094
Might be getting senile :roll: Will correct that.
Luis
User avatar
Luis A M
Moderator
 
Posts: 5630
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 2:34 pm
Location: Buenos Aires,Argentina

Postby Luis A M » Sat Feb 09, 2008 4:49 pm

The quality of pics is excelent,pro and publishable stuff! :D
I imagined I had to make a mini photo tank to take lateral shots of swimming larvae.So you just capture larvae passing close to the tank´s front glass?Amazing!.You must obviously have a tank full of larvae :wink:
Luis
User avatar
Luis A M
Moderator
 
Posts: 5630
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 2:34 pm
Location: Buenos Aires,Argentina

Re:

Postby DrHsu » Sun Feb 10, 2008 1:40 am

Luis A M wrote:The quality of pics is excelent,pro and publishable stuff! :D
I imagined I had to make a mini photo tank to take lateral shots of swimming larvae.So you just capture larvae passing close to the tank´s front glass?Amazing!.You must obviously have a tank full of larvae :wink:

Thanks for the flattering comments Luis, but I have to say that the pics are not quite that good - too "soft" to be publishable...but good enough to be excited about :D

I don't have many - only about 12 now but all are doing well. I think I lucked out as with the set up I used for hatching them, I found that it created a circular current in the square based tank. With the light coming from the front (with the trash bag down), they naturally congregate to the front right next to the glass!

This morning, I put some NHBBS into the larval tank and you could see that they are interested - following and even striking in some cases - but I could not see actual capture and ingestion. However a little later on, I could see that some had much more visible, fuller abdomens meaning that at least some of they are already able to capture and ingest the NHBBS (San Francisco strain).

Today, the spawn that was laid last Sunday morning hatched either late last night, or very early this morning - found many larvae swimming in the tank this morning, and with about 1/2 the spawn still unhatched. So, in my conditions, they hatch about 6/7th night. I'm letting this one go, and likely the next one or two spawns, unless I can find space to set up another larval tank :lol:
Li Chieh

Otherwise known as marinebetta in most marine forums.....

.....................................................................

"It's what you learn after you think you know it all..that matters" - Anon
User avatar
DrHsu
 
Posts: 704
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2007 10:27 am
Location: Singapore

Day 9 pictures

Postby DrHsu » Sun Feb 10, 2008 10:48 am

Looks like they are eating NHBBS :D
Image

Out of focus NHBBS on the upper right; rotifer just behind the tail. Awesome gape on these guys....
Image

Picture showing a few rotifers for size comparison. The fine tiny dots are most likely the ciliates still going strong in the larval tank.
Image
Li Chieh

Otherwise known as marinebetta in most marine forums.....

.....................................................................

"It's what you learn after you think you know it all..that matters" - Anon
User avatar
DrHsu
 
Posts: 704
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2007 10:27 am
Location: Singapore

Day 13 pictures

Postby DrHsu » Thu Feb 14, 2008 11:22 am

It's Day 13 today....Looks like I may be loosing some - they always seem very empty stomached in the mornings and will only look like they ingested BBS after I add new stuff into the tank. I think the BBS grow faster than the larvae's gape and since I only feed once a day..... :cry:

They are growing for sure, as this 100% crop shows - pretty much filling the frame cf the last posted pics.
Image

Looks like the NHBBS will fit? (not a 100% crop)
Image
Li Chieh

Otherwise known as marinebetta in most marine forums.....

.....................................................................

"It's what you learn after you think you know it all..that matters" - Anon
User avatar
DrHsu
 
Posts: 704
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2007 10:27 am
Location: Singapore

Postby FuEl » Thu Feb 14, 2008 12:17 pm

Interesting Li Chieh, do keep the pics coming. If you are able to feed twice a day (i.e once in the morning before work, once upon getting home from work), this might work to keep appropriate sized bbs within the tank for a longer period of time. After the daily harvest, I usually keep the excess bbs in a shallow dish along with some vitamin mix and I place them in the fridge without any form of aeration. When I return from work, I use this to feed while I wait for the next bbs harvest. :)
I love Artemac!
User avatar
FuEl
 
Posts: 1186
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2007 11:23 pm
Location: Singapore

Re:

Postby DrHsu » Thu Feb 14, 2008 12:21 pm

FuEl wrote:Interesting Li Chieh, do keep the pics coming. If you are able to feed twice a day (i.e once in the morning before work, once upon getting home from work), this might work to keep appropriate sized bbs within the tank for a longer period of time. After the daily harvest, I usually keep the excess bbs in a shallow dish along with some vitamin mix and I place them in the fridge without any form of aeration. When I return from work, I use this to feed while I wait for the next bbs harvest. :)
Doesn't help when you come back at 1030 pm and lights have been out for 3 hrs already...
Li Chieh

Otherwise known as marinebetta in most marine forums.....

.....................................................................

"It's what you learn after you think you know it all..that matters" - Anon
User avatar
DrHsu
 
Posts: 704
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2007 10:27 am
Location: Singapore

Re:

Postby FuEl » Thu Feb 14, 2008 12:36 pm

DrHsu wrote:Doesn't help when you come back at 1030 pm and lights have been out for 3 hrs already...

Amazing effort considering your schedule...I'm already struggling to cope with my breeding chores when I get back at 7-8 pm. :oops:
I love Artemac!
User avatar
FuEl
 
Posts: 1186
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2007 11:23 pm
Location: Singapore

Re:

Postby Luis A M » Thu Feb 14, 2008 1:13 pm

DrHsu wrote:
danch wrote:How are you taking these pictures? Macro mode and a steady hand? Flash or no flash?

I'm using a Nikon D70 with 60mm micro, SB-800 flash. Handheld with some support from a stool. Synch in manual at 1/500 and f22. Prefocus to max magnification and wait for the larvae to come into view, and adjust focus by moving back/forth as required. A tripod would be better but too much trouble to set it up! :)

You hand hold the flash too?Aiming from the top or angled from the front?
Luis
User avatar
Luis A M
Moderator
 
Posts: 5630
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 2:34 pm
Location: Buenos Aires,Argentina

Postby KMB » Thu Feb 14, 2008 2:09 pm

I somehow missed seeing this thread. Came upon it today and it's great!

Was it day 8 when you started adding the Artemia? Would you consider doing a run with 24hr lighting so that you can feed twice a day. It would be interesting to see if additional feedings will help them through day 13.

Karen
KMB
 
Posts: 277
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2007 7:03 pm
Location: Hawaii

Next

Return to Elacatinus - Cleaner Gobies



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

cron