Help or Advice Anemones Dissolving

Help or Advice Anemones Dissolving

Postby BaboonScience » Thu Feb 28, 2008 8:18 pm

I have a MAJOR problem with anemones.
I bought several anemones from a local wholesaler this week. Got home and acclimated 5 anemones (1BTA, 1RBTA, 1 long tentacle, 1 H. magnifica and 1 Sebae) each to separate tanks. Nothing different from what I have done before.
They were pretty "swollen" in the bags but within an hour of introduction, all were flacid. The long tentacle has partially recovered and the magnifica is hanging on. The rest simply dissolved.
I hand picked these and all were in decent shape prior to baging.
The water quality in all tanks is what I would call optimum. Good lighting and current. None but the LTA and now the H. magnifica ever even attached.
Was wondering if there is a resource out there for problem solving.
Or if anyone has any insite.
I have never had a problem with anemones. As you can see by my ramblings, this has me a bit upset. I hate to see a good animal simply dissolve.
And the clowns look so pitiful trying to nurse the H. magnifica.
Thanks
John
"The exact contrary of what is generally believed is often the truth" Jean De La Bruyère (1645-1696)
User avatar
BaboonScience
 
Posts: 3629
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2007 8:47 pm
Location: High Shoals

Postby Spracklcat » Fri Feb 29, 2008 8:28 am

Sorry for the loss--unfortunately, not uncommon with newly imported anemones. Anemones just don't travel well--they are very sensitive to shipping, and I've seen many times where they look great at the store or wholesaler, are brought home to great conditions, and turn to stinky mush in a day. It usually goes that way too-out of the bag they look fine.

I asked my friendly neighborhood aquaculture specialist for more info, and he added that it is ammonia poisoning that does these guys in. When they are shipped from their originating country in bags of water, the shipping water builds up ammonia, as they all do, but for some reason anemones and some other animals are particularly sensitive. Fish can usually recover if the duration and severity of increased ammonia is not too bad--anemones (and snails) just don't. They do significantly better if they are shipped dry: the tentacles are "waved down" to get them to retract and expel their water, and the anemone is transported in a bag with little more water than what is on it. Ask your source whether they received those anemones wet or dry--it might help confirm the cause.

This makes sense to me: many anemones are intertidal, so they are accustomed or adapted to being out of water for periods of time. When the tide recedes, the anemone is left with just a coating of water, and it retracts its tentacles and sits closed up until it is submerged again. Perhaps it also slows metabolism and slows excretion of ammonia--while underwater, any excreted ammonia gets diluted and swept away rapidly. During low tide, any ammonia excreted would sit on the anemone, undiluted, and would probably burn. I wonder too if the ammonia poisoning isn't the reason why these anemones always look fantastic in the store, with tentacles filled--perhaps the anemone is trying to purge itself of poisoned water.

All the more reason for the marine community to start propagating these inland--less shipping means less mortality. Now, if we could know how Aiptasia reproduce so prolifically and take advantage of that...
User avatar
Spracklcat
 
Posts: 590
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2007 5:12 pm
Location: Long Island, NY

Postby BaboonScience » Fri Feb 29, 2008 11:04 am

THAT explains alot! They looked pumped and beautiful at the showroom. Shipping methods would be worth an experiment to validate. I'll probably do it anyway. Explains why BTAs from some West Coast Wholesalers are always in bad shape when they arrive.

Thanks Christine.
Thank your friendly neighborhood anonymous anemonologist. :roll:

John
"The exact contrary of what is generally believed is often the truth" Jean De La Bruyère (1645-1696)
User avatar
BaboonScience
 
Posts: 3629
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2007 8:47 pm
Location: High Shoals

Re:

Postby Spracklcat » Fri Feb 29, 2008 11:13 am

BaboonScience wrote: Explains why BTAs from some West Coast Wholesalers are always in bad shape when they arrive.


Exactly right--and a good reason to go through an LFS instead and have them hold the anemone so you can see if it is going to melt first. The wholesaler will be cheaper, but by the time you factor in mortalities, it isn't always a money saver.

I've had excellent luck with AquaMarines though--superb service, and they cherry-pick animals resulting in better quality on average.
User avatar
Spracklcat
 
Posts: 590
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2007 5:12 pm
Location: Long Island, NY

Re:

Postby Greshamh » Fri Feb 29, 2008 2:54 pm

Spracklcat wrote:Sorry for the loss--unfortunately, not uncommon with newly imported anemones. Anemones just don't travel well--they are very sensitive to shipping, and I've seen many times where they look great at the store or wholesaler, are brought home to great conditions, and turn to stinky mush in a day. It usually goes that way too-out of the bag they look fine.

I asked my friendly neighborhood aquaculture specialist for more info, and he added that it is ammonia poisoning that does these guys in. When they are shipped from their originating country in bags of water, the shipping water builds up ammonia, as they all do, but for some reason anemones and some other animals are particularly sensitive. Fish can usually recover if the duration and severity of increased ammonia is not too bad--anemones (and snails) just don't. They do significantly better if they are shipped dry: the tentacles are "waved down" to get them to retract and expel their water, and the anemone is transported in a bag with little more water than what is on it. Ask your source whether they received those anemones wet or dry--it might help confirm the cause.
...


I have never had an exporter ship anemonies in water. All, even new ones, shipped dry. Wholesalers on the other hand aren't up on "bleeding" them on window screens and shipping dry, labor is another limitting factor as well.
Greshamh
 
Posts: 743
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2007 12:04 pm
Location: anywhere but here

Re:

Postby BaboonScience » Sat Mar 01, 2008 3:42 am

Greshamh wrote:I have never had an exporter ship anemonies in water. All, even new ones, shipped dry. Wholesalers on the other hand aren't up on "bleeding" them on window screens and shipping dry, labor is another limitting factor as well.

Now I know.
Can anyone give an outline of an accepted method of prepping anemones for shipping. How to dry, how dry, any special bagging necessary, etc. I will have another go at this and some wholesalers may be watching. They could possibly learn along with me.
Thanks everybody for the input.
John
"The exact contrary of what is generally believed is often the truth" Jean De La Bruyère (1645-1696)
User avatar
BaboonScience
 
Posts: 3629
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2007 8:47 pm
Location: High Shoals

Re:

Postby Greshamh » Sat Mar 01, 2008 12:39 pm

BaboonScience wrote:
Greshamh wrote:I have never had an exporter ship anemonies in water. All, even new ones, shipped dry. Wholesalers on the other hand aren't up on "bleeding" them on window screens and shipping dry, labor is another limitting factor as well.

Now I know.
Can anyone give an outline of an accepted method of prepping anemones for shipping. How to dry, how dry, any special bagging necessary, etc. I will have another go at this and some wholesalers may be watching. They could possibly learn along with me.
Thanks everybody for the input.
John


Labor cost prohibits most US based wholesalers from doing this. I doubt any one of any size would do it for you ;) Smaller guys like Russo's Reef would, but ones that runs VERY large crews like QM, ERI, etc I doubt would. That would entail training a large chunk of their crew on a new handling protocal as well as slowing down the pack. The ROI isn't there and in business the ROI rules :(

Every wholesaler I know has easy access to that info, knows about it, but doesn't practice it.
Greshamh
 
Posts: 743
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2007 12:04 pm
Location: anywhere but here

Re:

Postby BaboonScience » Sat Mar 01, 2008 2:20 pm

Greshamh wrote:Labor cost prohibits most US based wholesalers from doing this. I doubt any one of any size would do it for you ;) Smaller guys like Russo's Reef would, but ones that runs VERY large crews like QM, ERI, etc I doubt would. That would entail training a large chunk of their crew on a new handling protocal as well as slowing down the pack. The ROI isn't there and in business the ROI rules :(

Every wholesaler I know has easy access to that info, knows about it, but doesn't practice it.

Thanks Gresham
However, I if I am there (I know some of the staff, including the packers) they will let me go at it as long as I do not get in their way. And as long as I am buying. With a little instruction I may make fewer mistakes. :roll: Just trying to minimize losses. This sort of loss is both costly and disappointing.
Thanks again for the input,
John
"The exact contrary of what is generally believed is often the truth" Jean De La Bruyère (1645-1696)
User avatar
BaboonScience
 
Posts: 3629
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2007 8:47 pm
Location: High Shoals

Re:

Postby vaporize » Sat Mar 01, 2008 11:01 pm

Greshamh wrote:I have never had an exporter ship anemonies in water. All, even new ones, shipped dry. Wholesalers on the other hand aren't up on "bleeding" them on window screens and shipping dry, labor is another limitting factor as well.


Interesting, talking to alot of our importers, most of their exporters originally shipped the anemones dry before but they started to ask them to ship them with water due to high losses (except carpet anemone), not sure if the difference in temperature actually played a different role as we are in Canada.
User avatar
vaporize
 
Posts: 327
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2007 12:17 am
Location: Toronto, Canada

Re:

Postby Greshamh » Sun Mar 02, 2008 2:18 pm

BaboonScience wrote:
Greshamh wrote:Labor cost prohibits most US based wholesalers from doing this. I doubt any one of any size would do it for you ;) Smaller guys like Russo's Reef would, but ones that runs VERY large crews like QM, ERI, etc I doubt would. That would entail training a large chunk of their crew on a new handling protocal as well as slowing down the pack. The ROI isn't there and in business the ROI rules :(

Every wholesaler I know has easy access to that info, knows about it, but doesn't practice it.

Thanks Gresham
However, I if I am there (I know some of the staff, including the packers) they will let me go at it as long as I do not get in their way. And as long as I am buying. With a little instruction I may make fewer mistakes. :roll: Just trying to minimize losses. This sort of loss is both costly and disappointing.
Thanks again for the input,
John


There's really no protocal for it. You remove the animal after getting it to close up as much you can underwater as so there is little left to purge. You then place the animal on widnow screen sat above your tank. Each animal has it's own "internal volume" of water so the length of time depends on the size. Your looking for a very firm ball once done. It usually took us like 5 minutes per when I tried it a few times.
Greshamh
 
Posts: 743
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2007 12:04 pm
Location: anywhere but here

Re:

Postby vaporize » Sun Mar 02, 2008 2:55 pm

Greshamh wrote:There's really no protocal for it. You remove the animal after getting it to close up as much you can underwater as so there is little left to purge. You then place the animal on widnow screen sat above your tank. Each animal has it's own "internal volume" of water so the length of time depends on the size. Your looking for a very firm ball once done. It usually took us like 5 minutes per when I tried it a few times.


Greshamh, what's the best way to get the anemone to 'drain' ? I tried the window screen, should the window screen be out of water or with a little bit of water? I always ended up with anemones half drained and with tenacles/foot sticking out of those window screen holes.
User avatar
vaporize
 
Posts: 327
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2007 12:17 am
Location: Toronto, Canada

Re:

Postby BaboonScience » Sun Mar 02, 2008 5:30 pm

Greshamh wrote:There's really no protocal for it. You remove the animal after getting it to close up as much you can underwater as so there is little left to purge. You then place the animal on widnow screen sat above your tank. Each animal has it's own "internal volume" of water so the length of time depends on the size. Your looking for a very firm ball once done. It usually took us like 5 minutes per when I tried it a few times.

Gresham
Thanks! I'll try this and post the results.
I thought that I understood your explanation the first time. The added detail clears up some points in my mind.
These are getting too expensive here to fiddle with standard packing methods.
You and Christine have been a great help. :)
Not if I can get the 240 back up and healthy. On the bright side, all of the Aptasia is dead. :roll:
John
"The exact contrary of what is generally believed is often the truth" Jean De La Bruyère (1645-1696)
User avatar
BaboonScience
 
Posts: 3629
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2007 8:47 pm
Location: High Shoals


Return to Asexual Reproduction



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest