Onyx Odd couple - Keep as or split ?

Postby KathyL » Thu Jan 08, 2009 9:50 pm

Never fear, spring is coming....
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Postby sanjay » Thu Jan 15, 2009 8:56 pm

I am starting to find that the environment is playing a role in the rate of development of the black color. The ones in my 55G tank under metal halide have turned the darkest, the ones I put in the overflow box of my tank and getting indirect subdued light from the MH have developed less black, and the ones I have in the grow out tank with dim lighting are quite orange.

I took the most orange one I could find and put it in the 55G reef, and in 2 weeks it has become significantly darker.

Wondering if light intensity plays a role in development of the black color.

Here is the latest picture of one of them in my 55G tank. Note the pectoral fin has only got a little orange left in the middle and is mostly black.

Image

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Re:

Postby mpedersen » Thu Jan 15, 2009 11:09 pm

sanjay wrote:I am starting to find that the environment is playing a role in the rate of development of the black color. The ones in my 55G tank under metal halide have turned the darkest, the ones I put in the overflow box of my tank and getting indirect subdued light from the MH have developed less black, and the ones I have in the grow out tank with dim lighting are quite orange.


More annecdotal evidence for the "light" theory, but this time not in pure Onyx. Very interesting!

Wondering if light intensity plays a role in development of the black color.


I think Colby's doing his senior thesis on this topic now...certainly one of the hottest topics that doesn't have a known answer (introduced me to the phrase "epigenetic trait" too ;) )

So, to throw out the possible variables that play a role:

Genetics (i.e. if the base isn't there, no amount of light is going to turn the fish black)
Host
Age
Sexual Maturity / Social Situation
Light
Water Quality

There are others, but these seem to the be the ones that we keep coming back to. Diet seems to not get much consideration in the "black clownfish" debates....

How old are they now?
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Postby sanjay » Fri Jan 16, 2009 12:25 am

Very close to 5 months old. Actually 5 months and 8 days today.

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Postby sanjay » Sat Jan 24, 2009 12:01 am

Well, there won't be any more eggs from this pair. Came home today to find the male all beat up with his fins torn up and hiding in a corner. After dinner, found him stuck to the intake of the power head. Looks like the female must have turned on him and beat him up or something. It sucks, but He made his contribution to the gene pool, and May he rest in peace.

Now I need to figure out what to do with the lone female. Give it one of its siblings to pair up with, and see what happens ?

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Postby mpedersen » Sat Jan 24, 2009 4:16 am

Sanjay, looks like we both ran into fish losses today. Sorry to hear about yours - how long had the pair been together?

So you lost the male, which leaves you with an Onyx Perc female. Now, as you know, I'm very anti-hybridization from the get go, but I understand there's scientific merit and things can be learned from the process. So I'd say sure, do the back-cross. Here's why:

In the orchid breeding world, hybrids are treated like this:
O X B = OB
O X OB = OOB
OB X OB = OBOB

In the scientific community though, hybrids are treated like this:
O X B = OB
O X OB = OB
OB X OB = OB

I think you can see where I'm going with this. Now, I honestly don't get how the scientific community ever came up with the notion of treating hybrids, because at least in the orchid world, all those different crosses create different phenotypes. So, in the case of your first generation cross - OB, often refered to as a primary hybrid in the orchid world, we'd expect a pretty uniform phenotype. However, the backcross (resulting in OOB) could create an entire continuum of phenotpyes, or it could very much simply trend back towards the dominant portion of parentage.

There are any numbers of observations that can be made that would add to our understanding of clownfish hybrids, and how these particular varieties interact. From an ornamental breeding standpoint, that information is considered valuable.

However, I'll say this. I have no reservations about telling people that I think now is not the right time to be playing around with hybrids and the creation of new captive strains. At some point, 20 years, 50 years, 100 years, tomorrow, we might not be able to get WC fish. Once they're gone (regardless of the reason) we'll be left with the species we've already brought into captivity and established. It's a more noble endeavor in my opinion to preserve the natural biodiversity of our planet before we go about creating our own new forms.

So...if this were my fish, I'd either be looking for a new mate (a new Onyx Percula), OR I'd be looking at finding the Onyx Female a new home, and trying a completely different species of clownfish all together (hey, I just saw a $6000 pair of Mccullochi's up for sale today...there's an idea...if you have 6k to drop on a pair of clowns!!!!) Seriously though, there's what, 27 or so species of clowns out there?

The cool part Sanjay is that I know whatever you chose, you're not doing it to make hybrids in the hopes of selling them for a premium as a way to make lots of money. Your scientific mind ensures you'll bring benefit to the aquatic community with whatever decision you make. So I'm not really worried if you opt to pair her up with one of her offspring, or even another Black Ocellaris!!!!

I know I'll be on the edge of my seat waiting to hear what you decide. Around here, losses are both a tragedy but also an opportunity...
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Why split them up?

Postby Fearlessmoto » Sun Feb 15, 2009 10:39 am

Why does everyone say split them up, crossbreeding these fish could produce some really nice looking Genetic Variants, my opinion is leave them together, to find more info specifically for this question
go to the following link.

http://rareclownfish.com/forums/index.p ... rerid=1957

scroll down to the section marked CLOWNFISH AND ANEMONE
click on the forum marked CLOWNFISHES
and scroll to the thread called MY HYBRED CLOWNS

its exactly the same scenario, to post messages you will have to complete a free registry but thats up to you, there is also a lot of valuable clownfish
related breeding info

HOPE THIS HELPS! :D
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Postby sanjay » Fri Feb 20, 2009 12:23 am

Some latest pics

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

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Re: Why split them up?

Postby mpedersen » Fri Feb 20, 2009 12:31 am

Fearlessmoto wrote:Why does everyone say split them up, crossbreeding these fish could produce some really nice looking Genetic Variants


No, crossbreeding produces HYBRIDS, not "genetic variants". The main reasons to take an anti-hybrid stance are:

#1. Hybrids may not be discernable at all times, and therefore can pollute the overall captive genetic base of a natural species.

#2. There are PLENTY of species that are all at risk of extinction if we do not do something to preserve them in captivity. Therefore, solely my personal opinion, it's better to focus breeding talent on securing more species rather than creating "hybrids"

That said, we CAN learn something from the creation of hybrids, provided the people making those hybrids share the information for everyone to learn, and that is where the merit comes in. I.e. Sanjay's cross demonstrates that stripe formation is genetically controlled, and in the cross, the ocellaris genes for rapid stripe formation appear to be dominant over the percula genetics that tend towards "snail pace" stripe development.

SANJAY - WOW on the pictures. Thanks for sharing them and continuing to document the development of the "Onyx Perc" X "Black Ocellaris" hybrid. Have you setlted on a name for the cross yet?
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Postby percula lover » Fri Feb 20, 2009 2:22 am

:) I don't care what anyone else says the second picture of the clownfish is great and could be considered a Onyx percula; even if their are hybrids 8) but I wouldn't sell them as onyx percula :wink: In my opinion :wink:
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Postby percula lover » Fri Feb 20, 2009 2:29 am

Matt if you didn't know they were hybrids, would you considered the second one as a Onyx percula at a local fish store ( and tell the truth :wink: because it has the orange eye and other characteristics!)
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Re:

Postby mpedersen » Fri Feb 20, 2009 2:39 am

clownfish152089 wrote:Matt if you didn't know they were hybrids, would you considered the second one as a Onyx percula at a local fish store ( and tell the truth :wink: because it has the orange eye and other characteristics!)


YES, just visually at first glance, I probably WOULD consider that an Onyx Perc, and that is precisely the problem with hybrids. The truth is that a real Amphiprion pecula should not fully bar up in 30-60 days.

The truth is that Sanjay's offspring are not true Percs in any sense of the term, but to the untrained eye, there is likely no way to tell them apart. From a conservation standpoint, one should be concerned with preserving natural biodiversity - partially because one day it's possible (althought admitttedly not probable) that we, as fish breeders, could be the ones called upon to re-seed the ocean with fish we conserve through the establishment of captive breeding.

It's very much a struggle, and ultimately up to the individual breeder to chose what he/she pursues. I certainly have a stance, but as mentioned prior, I certainly respect Sanjays' work because we ALL are learning from it - it has redeeming qualities because Sanjay is willing to share and document. If Sanjay simply produced these fish, and sold them as "Onxy Percs" it'd be a completely different story. They are NOT "Onyx Percs" in any sense of the word/term/phrase/name.

The MAIN thing here is that it's safe to assume that if Sanjay were to be selling any offspring, he would make absolutely sure to disclaim them as hybrids, and probably would share the actual parentage of them and make absolutely sure that people knew what they were getting. Far different from a scenario where someone might sell "percularis" as simply ocellaris or percula, and thus forever muddling the genetics if they get into a breeding program as a "species".

The risk that Sanjay has no control over is what someone else might do with such a fish. Just because Sanjay makes certain to say these are a hybrid does not mean that the NEXT person who passes them along will take the same care to convey that important info. That's how things get screwed up even when a careful, well-intentioned breeder produces a hybrid. The responsibility falls on EVERYONE, and not everyone is as meticulous about their records...
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Postby percula lover » Fri Feb 20, 2009 2:54 am

:) thanks for the quick reply :wink: I did think about that and it is true some people will say they are just onyx to make a few extra bucks :evil:
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Postby Fearlessmoto » Wed Feb 25, 2009 9:07 pm

Hybrids occurr naturally so whats wrong with breeding them artificially,
as long as you are responsible about it, like not deceptively selling one fish as another to make more money :evil: I believe you are correct about breeding endangered and threatened species, but that does not mean you cannot create attractive hybrids as well(and sorry if I call them genetic variants, but that is what they are, same difference:p.
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Postby KathyL » Thu Feb 26, 2009 11:38 pm

Hybrids may occur via natural spawning in aquaria, but do not occur in the ocean as far as we know. How natural is it? Despite popular culture, all in nature is not benign. Think hurricanes and poison ivy.

Genetic variants are not the same as hybrids. Matt's point is a good one. One can carefully explain that one has created hybrids, but the information may get lost as clownfish can live for 30 years or more, and change hands many times. The creation of hybrids is a bit icky, with a heavy responsibility to keep track of the offspring.

In Sanjay's case, the cross produced some pretty fish, but...sometimes the result is not so pretty, or not identifiable by sight, and those are some problems.
Last edited by KathyL on Sat Feb 28, 2009 1:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby KathyL » Thu Feb 26, 2009 11:58 pm

The fish on the right in the first and last shots of this latest series looks like a juvenile black ocellaris. This is one of the babies, correct? If so, the cross may produce some that resemble mama more than papa and visa versa.
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Postby Fearlessmoto » Fri Feb 27, 2009 6:51 pm

I can see your point, about keeping track of the offspring I mean, and how someone could easily decieve someone else into paying more. I think you guys have won me over, Hybrids bad :evil:
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Re: Onyx Odd couple - Keep as or split ?

Postby sanjay » Fri Mar 27, 2009 9:53 am

In Mid January I sold a few of the offspring to folks in Manhattan Reef Club. They started a thread on their forum and it is really interesting to see that the black coloration development is happening a quite a varied rate. Either that is genetic because of the hybrid nature, or a function of environment is still not clear. They are around 7 months old now.

http://www.manhattanreefs.com/forum/pho ... -club.html

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Re: Onyx Odd couple - Keep as or split ?

Postby aomont » Fri Mar 27, 2009 9:14 pm

Wow Sanjay, what a variety ! The third pic you posted there is from a really beautifull clown. ;)
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Re: Onyx Odd couple - Keep as or split ?

Postby Arati » Sun Mar 29, 2009 9:00 pm

Hybrids may occur via natural spawning in aquaria, but do not occur in the ocean as far as we know. How natural is it?



Kathy I thought it was pretty well agree'd upon that both A.Leucokranos and A.Thiellei are hybred clownfish. I have also seen more then a few other clownfish that appear to be natural hybreds. I guess the fact is noone has scientificaly proven it yet, but im pretty sure hybredization happens throughout nature.

I do of coarse agree that its the responsibility of the breeder to make sure the fish are clearly marked as hybreds. S.A sell percularis regularly.

also Fearless moto, those pictures you emntioned above are of my fish and I got them from Sanjay.

here is some video of my GLE. Clown

Image
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Re: Onyx Odd couple - Keep as or split ?

Postby sanjay » Sat Aug 15, 2009 12:34 am

Since the male of the pair that produced the hybrids died a while back... I threw in a few of the offspring with the female Onyx Perc. After killing off a few, she paired up with one of them.

And today I have eggs from this paring. !!! Will be very interesting to see what turns up if I manage to raise these.

So what are these called. F1b hybrids ?

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Re: Onyx Odd couple - Keep as or split ?

Postby xroads » Sat Aug 15, 2009 8:15 am

Photon2's of course
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Re: Onyx Odd couple - Keep as or split ?

Postby sanjay » Thu Aug 27, 2009 10:00 pm

Just took a couple of pics of the 2 babies from the first spawn... they are about a year old now.

The female:

Image

The male:

Image

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Re: Onyx Odd couple - Keep as or split ?

Postby KathyL » Fri Aug 28, 2009 12:02 am

Were any of the F1 generation slow to develop the black coloration? Any slow to get white bars, or did the follow the ocellaris timing of getting the bars in the first 2 weeks?
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Re: Onyx Odd couple - Keep as or split ?

Postby sanjay » Fri Aug 28, 2009 12:27 am

The stripes developed quickly (all 3 of the stripes) just like ocellaris. The development of black coloration is quite varied, and I am not quite sure what some of the factors are that may affect this. I randomly took 5 of them and threw them into my big reef tank. 3 of the 5 have developed deep black colors, 1 of them is black with some muddy brown, and one of them is all muddy brown with hardly any black showing yet. So clearly its not just light, since they are all getting the same light. The smallest one is the muddy brown one.. so it could be that the pecking order is affecting its color change ? Or it could just be the genes it inherited.

I am going to try and photograph all 5 of them in the big reef and post the pics here. So you can see the range of color development. DD has sold a few pairs of them and I am hoping people who got them post pictures, as I am quite interested in how they develop over time.

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