Pyjama Male Holding

Pyjama Male Holding

Postby JimWelsh » Sat Oct 31, 2009 6:25 am

SOME PICTURES WERE REMOVED BY THE AUTHOR
I have ordered Witt's book, and it will be shipping soon from Amazon, but I don't have it yet. Just today, my wife noticed one of our 3 Pyjamas that we have had for over 3 years now is not eating, and it looks like his mouth is full. I have to admit, these cardinals live in our seahorse tank, and I never pay much attention to them. At any rate, I've been reading the topics here, and I just want to make sure I have the details of raising these guys, in case dad really is holding eggs:

#1) Wait until dad has been holding them for about 7 days
#2) Net him
#3) Hopefully, he spits out the eggs
#4) Hopefully, they are silver now, and have eyes showing
#5) Put the egg mass in a separate fry rearing tank, suspended in a mesh net or plankton sieve, and keep aerated gently
#6) Make sure they have plenty of SS rotifers growing in green water
#7) Watch them hatch almost immediately
#8) Watch them all die within about 30 days or perhaps much less
#9) Repeat the process about every two weeks

Do I have the basics down? Please advise and/or correct. Pointers welcome (especially about step #8 :wink: )!
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Re: Pyjama Male Holding

Postby Luis A M » Sat Oct 31, 2009 2:32 pm

Jim,some comments,FWIW:
1-5 can be changed by check for larvae every night after night 5 and take them to the larval tank with a siphon and spotlight.
8- can be erased.If they live 30 days,they made it!
If they die soon with a small rots diet,you should try copepods next time.
5-eggs could be better kept in a tumbler.
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Re: Pyjama Male Holding

Postby JimWelsh » Sat Oct 31, 2009 2:45 pm

Luis,

Thanks!

As for watching for larvae: these PJs are in a 65 gal tank with light-moderate flow. How do I keep them from going out the overflow? I've read up a little about larva snatchers (I do have April Kirkendoll's book). Do I shut the pumps off each night and let the light work its magic? My wife wants to try to catch the male, and put him in a separate tank, but it sounds like he'll likely drop the eggs as soon as he is netted, yes?

Food: Unfortunately I only have L type rotifers right now. Do the PJ fry have a prayer with them? As for copepods, I assume I need copepod nauplii, since most copepods are bigger than rotifers, yes? I do have TONS of Tigriopus, and while I know they are harpacticoid and thus, benthic, and a large copepod, too, I sure do see a whole bunch of them swimming around all the time. Would they be a useful food?

TIA for any additional suggestions.

EDIT: What's a tumbler?
EDIT2: What time of night? Right after lights out, or what?

Jim
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Re: Pyjama Male Holding

Postby Luis A M » Sat Oct 31, 2009 3:00 pm

Jim,
A tumbler is something like a funnel or an inverted soda bottle that make the egg ball keep rolling by means of water or air coming from beneath.
Catching the male could be stressful,and yes,he will spit the eggs.If they are like Banggais,they can be netted easily if you turn the lights on when they{re asleep. :wink:
Prepare an incand.spotlight and turn the filters off.Alternatively,you could strain the outflow?
When lights go off,go to see some show and then check for larvae with a flashlight.If you see,turn the spotlight on (in the dark room) and start hunting larvae!.
Copepods here meaning calanoid nauplii.
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SS Rotifers Source?

Postby JimWelsh » Sun Nov 22, 2009 1:16 pm

I never saw any larvae from the last brood, but dad is carrying eggs again now. I now have Witt's book, and have a few more clues. One big problem I forsee: no SS-strain rotifers. Does anybody know a source? I know that Adelaide at Essential Live Feeds might have them, but does anybody know of any alternative source? Anybody in the US willing to sell me some? If so, PM me, please!

Another question I have is about the possibility of sieving my L-strain rotifers. As I try 3 different mesh sizes of 120, 80, and 53 microns, I find some females always get through, but I get a higher percentage of males with decreasing mesh size (yeah, I know, I should'nt have males if my culture isn't stressed...). I believe the males have virtually no food value, since they don't eat, so my question is: If I have, say, 2/3 females and 1/3 males when I sieve at 120 microns, would this be a good food for young PJ larvae?
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Re: Pyjama Male Holding

Postby William » Sun Nov 22, 2009 7:56 pm

Hi, I 'm glad someone else is working on Pajamas.

Here is what I have learned so far.

- They hatch very reliably on the 7th night (I discover the eggs on a tuesday morning, they will hatch the next monday night)
- At hatching they are much smaller than Witt's book suggests. Mine hatch out at 2.7mm
- They will eat regular rotifers.
- They either grow VERY slowly, or rotifers (or at least they way I enrich them) does not provide the nutrients they need to grow. My record is 7 days and they were still smaller than newly hatched clown larvae.
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Re: Pyjama Male Holding

Postby JimWelsh » Mon Nov 23, 2009 12:39 am

Thanks for the info, Will. Do you choose to (a) let Dad hold the eggs until they hatch and use a larva snagger, or (b) net him and hope he spits, then tumble the eggs, or (c) some other approach?
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Re: Pyjama Male Holding

Postby William » Mon Nov 23, 2009 9:07 am

At first I chased him down hoping that he would not spit and hoping that he would assist the hatching in the larvae tank. This worked out well the few times that he did not spit them.

It took me a while to learn how to tumble the eggs but once I figured that out, my hatch rate was just as good as when I left the eggs with Dad.
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Re: Pyjama Male Holding

Postby JimWelsh » Wed Nov 25, 2009 12:23 am

OK, since Dad was in a display tank with other fish, I decided to net him tonight (day 5, I think). He spat. I have the egg mass in a tumbler consisting of a plastic kitchen funnel sitting in a 2-liter bottle style brine shrimp hatcher. Bubbles are about 2 per second. The eggs had lots of dark spots (eyes?).

Questions:
1) Does it matter if the egg mass breaks up?
2) Will they hatch early now, or will they wait the full 7 days or so?
3) Display (broodstock) tank was usually 75-78F. Ambient temp where tumbler sits is 72-74F. I should put tumbler in a larger tank with a heater set at 78-80F, right?

I'm sure I'll have other questions later, but for now, I'm off to re-read everything I can about these guys.
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Re: Pyjama Male Holding

Postby JimWelsh » Wed Nov 25, 2009 1:57 am

After reading the other posts in Sphaeramia (especially the posts by acroporas), I'm pretty sure I netted Dad too early (I wasn't sure I actually noticed him carrying eggs on Day 1). I examined the egg mass under the microscope, and a few have eyes with developed pupils, but they are mostly still pretty yellowish/brownish, and the eye spots on most of them have no pupils (haven't turned silver yet). I'll keep them tumbling, and see what develops. Good news (I think) is that the egg mass is holding together really well.
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Re: Pyjama Male Holding

Postby JimWelsh » Wed Nov 25, 2009 3:28 am

acroporas wrote:It took me a while to learn how to tumble the eggs but once I figured that out, my hatch rate was just as good as when I left the eggs with Dad.


So, acroporas, what did you learn about "how to tumble the eggs"? What is the protocol that worked for you?
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Re: Pyjama Male Holding

Postby JimWelsh » Wed Nov 25, 2009 10:44 pm

Egg mass is still holding together. Tumbling gently, 3-4 bubbles / second. Much more white & silver this evening. I took the egg mass and looked under the microscope (yes, I know you want pictures, but I'm still too disorganized and have poor equipment, so you'll have to be patient, but I promise I will work on getting better at this) and there are many more pupils with silver irises looking back at me than this morning. I''ve kept the temperature at 76-78 today. This should be day 6 (if I saw him carrying his eggs on the first day).
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Re: Pyjama Male Holding

Postby JimWelsh » Thu Nov 26, 2009 3:43 pm

Update on day numbering: This morning, I realized it was Thursday of last week that I first saw him carrying the eggs. That makes the day he spat day 6, not 5 like I first stated. Yesterday was day 7, and so they are in the middle of day 8 now. Still looking good, with many more developed eyes. Irises much more silver now. I think tonight's the night! For you picture junkies, I took some photos just a few minutes ago. Here you go:

[ig]http://www.etslabs.com/images/JWelsh/PjEggs1.jpg[/img]

[mg]http://www.etslabs.com/images/JWelsh/PjEggs2.jpg[/img]
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Re: Pyjama Male Holding

Postby JimWelsh » Thu Nov 26, 2009 5:11 pm

Starting to hatch! Sorry for poor quality of photos:

[mg]http://www.etslabs.com/images/JWelsh/PjLarvaeAtHatch1.jpg[/img]

[mg]http://www.etslabs.com/images/JWelsh/PjLarvaeAtHatch2.jpg[/img]

I don't see any mouth parts. When do they get those?
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Re: Pyjama Male Holding

Postby Luis A M » Thu Nov 26, 2009 6:16 pm

Awesome,Jim! 8) Remember to post some newly hatched pics in the album!
Mouth should be finished by now...Can you measure the larvae?
Are they able to swim?.Looks like a premature hatch... :?
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Re: Pyjama Male Holding

Postby JimWelsh » Thu Nov 26, 2009 7:39 pm

I'm not very good at measuring yet, but by comparing what 900 micron screen looks like at the same magnification, I'd estimate about 2mm, +/- 300 microns or so. These early hatchers are not swimming. I hope the rest hatch later tonight more fully developed.
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Re: Pyjama Male Holding

Postby JimWelsh » Thu Nov 26, 2009 8:26 pm

Will the premature hatchers continue to develop as they consume the yolk sack, or are they doomed?
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Re: Pyjama Male Holding

Postby Luis A M » Fri Nov 27, 2009 1:57 am

If they are like banggais they´ll keep developing ex ovum (out of the egg,isn´t Latin trendy? :lol: )
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Re: Pyjama Male Holding

Postby JimWelsh » Sat Nov 28, 2009 10:23 pm

Two days later, here's an update: I thought they would hatch Thursday evening, but no. We had a 10-hour long power outage Friday morning. The eggs sat without tumbling for a couple of hours, until I could rig up the generator and run extension cords, etc. Friday afternoon, I moved the tumbler into a larvae rearing tank. Friday evening, I did see several larvae hatch that were swimming in the rearing tank, but I never saw them for long. I had the room dark, and was looking with a flashlight. I've seen references in other threads to a flashlight's beam being enough to kill some eggs; I don't know if that's the case here or not. At any rate, by Friday evening, the egg mass had pretty much broken up, and the eggs tended to settle down in the bottom of the tumbler next to where the bubbles would come up. By Saturday morning, I could find no larvae swiming, and the eggs do not appear to be viable any more, at least I couldn't see any heartbeats like I could earlier.

I learned a LOT in the last few days. I need to prepare an incubator like the one Witt describes on page 220. I also need to prepare a more general-purpose tumbler (I have the glass funnel on order). Dad has been eating well the last few days, and if he sticks to his schedule, I expect to have more eggs in about two weeks. I'll try to be much better prepared this time!
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Re: Pyjama Male Holding

Postby JimWelsh » Sat Dec 05, 2009 4:32 pm

I'm not 100% certain, but I'm pretty sure Dad is carrying eggs again today. Gosh, when it rains it pours! Green Chromis spawning, PJ Cardinal carrying eggs, and I'm pretty sure my H. reidi male is pregnant again, too! :lol:
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Re: Pyjama Male Holding

Postby Scottt » Sun Apr 11, 2010 11:51 am

Any updates?
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Re: Pyjama Male Holding

Postby efren » Sat Jul 03, 2010 7:57 pm

hi this are my cardenals today i guess he is carryng eggs what do you think?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsroGd5ZnLU
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Re: Pyjama Male Holding

Postby JimWelsh » Sat Jul 03, 2010 10:48 pm

Hard to tell, but I can usually tell at feeding time. A holding male won't eat!
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Re: Pyjama Male Holding

Postby efren » Sun Jul 04, 2010 9:02 pm

he is not eating anything so i am almost positively sure he is holding eggs
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Re: Pyjama Male Holding

Postby efren » Tue Sep 28, 2010 7:07 pm

but i canot get the babies or he is eating them or the others are eating them i have to get him out of that big tank
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