Hungry, Hungry Horses, I need some Moina please.

Hungry, Hungry Horses, I need some Moina please.

Postby johnrt » Fri Oct 08, 2010 10:13 pm

Hello All,

I have been lurking here for some time, basking in the insights and decided, a couple of months ago, to take the plunge and try Seahorse breeding.

I took it slowly and I am currently culturing Nannochloropsis, Tetraselmis, Isochrysis, going strongly and Pavlova, Rhodomonas and Spirulina just ticking over. Additionally I have rotifers, some copepods (starting) and a seemingly robust, huge Artemia culture. Therein lies the problem:

I thought I had an adequate supply of food, and succumbed to temptation and bought a pair of Hippocampus kuda with the plan of getting them weaned to PE Mysis shrimp and Cyclop-eeze. Well they will have nothing to do with the frozen fair yet nor freshly hatched Artemia and there is no supply, locally, of live Artemia and I am concerned that my existing colony is being depleted faster than I can build it up. The horses eat like pigs – very selective pigs.

I would like to get something that I can bulk up quickly and brackish or marine Moina looks like the best bet.

Could somebody send me dried eggs or a starter culture? PM me here please.

Thank you, Thank you, John Turnbull.
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
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Re: Hungry, Hungry Horses, I need some Moina please.

Postby JimWelsh » Sat Oct 09, 2010 5:32 pm

I'm not sure you are able to take advantage of this, but Moina salina cultures are available from Florida Aqua Farms: https://3kserver7.com/~frank/secure/ago ... E_CULTURES (scroll down).
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Re: Hungry, Hungry Horses, I need some Moina please.

Postby johnrt » Sat Oct 09, 2010 6:16 pm

Thank you Jim,

I did not know that the Moina they advertised were Moina salina. The text refers to them repeatedly as fresh water Daphnia.

I have purchased from Florida Aqua Farms on two or three occasions and been pleased with the service and products that I was able to get. They have turned down orders for some of their live product when shipping to Canada. They do ship algae disks, algae live cultures and resting rotifer and they have arrived promptly and in good shape. I tried to get Amphipods and macroalgae and those orders were refused.

I was told that they were not 'allowed' to ship to Canada. I have heard this several times from US suppliers, but fail to understand it. I would have thought it was OK, in American law, to sell anything that is generally legal, to anybody. When somebody states that they are not 'allowed' to do something, somebody or something must be preventing it. Even if it violated a Canadian law, Canadian laws have no jurisdiction in the US. I might not be allowed to import something, but that is my problem, not the shippers - I would think. On the other-hand, what do I know about the realities of import/export transactions.

It mentions in the text that they might have Moina resting eggs, so I'll give them a call on Monday.

Thank you again.
John T
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Re: Hungry, Hungry Horses, I need some Moina please.

Postby JimWelsh » Sat Oct 09, 2010 6:52 pm

Oh, you may be right. They may only have the freshwater species. Hmmm. I'll keep looking.
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Re: Hungry, Hungry Horses, I need some Moina please.

Postby johnrt » Sun Oct 10, 2010 10:12 pm

JimWelsh wrote:Oh, you may be right. They may only have the freshwater species. Hmmm. I'll keep looking.


Thank you for your efforts.

They are not really Hungry, Hungry Horses - yet, but I fear they will be. Artemia is slow when you need it.

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Re: Hungry, Hungry Horses, I need some Moina please.

Postby rayjay » Wed Oct 13, 2010 10:37 pm

John, I don't know just how big these "kuda" are, but most when sold are too large for a lot of the foods you are mentioning.
Rotifers are suitable for fry but not for larger seahorses. Same for a lot of copepods that are a way too small.
To get the seahorses trained to eating frozen mysis you may want to try this.
Pick up some small cherry shrimp or small ghost shrimp and feed those to the seahorses for a bit. Once they are used to feeding on these, take some and put them in the freezer for half and hour or so to kill them off and then feed some of these along with live ones. Once they start to eat on the dead ones, gradually cut back on the live until they only eat the dead ones.
Now, start to mix in frozen mysis in with these dead shrimp you have been feeding. Eventually they start on the frozen mysis.
Have you tried frozen brine shrimp as a stop gap?
If the seahorses are ONLY feeding on live, there are two scenario's likely for your "kudas" and one is that they have been wild caught and for best chances of survival need a nine week, three drug treatment to deworm them.
The other scenario is that they are just working on decimating the live food in the tank and won't bother with the frozen as long as there are still live food sources in the tank.
Be aware that your "kudas" may not be kudas as most of them sold in North America are actually 3 or 4 different species.
I raise live brine shrimp to adult for feeding to my horses but I gut load them first with Dan's Food with Beta Glucan, from seahorsesource.com. It's the best enrichment I've found.
RAISING BRINE SHRIMP TO ADULT
I also have links at the bottom of another page about my seahorse keeping that can guide you in your new endeavour. These links are pieces written by experience keepers and a commercial breeder, as well as a tank mates page.
MY THOUGHTS ON SEAHORSE KEEPING
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Re: Hungry, Hungry Horses, I need some Moina please.

Postby johnrt » Sat Oct 16, 2010 8:12 am

Hi rayjay,

We have talk occasionally. Did you ever get the Panacur you were looking for. I managed to get a prescription for Diamox from my doctor. It is a longish but amusing story and the theatrics at the pharmacy was even more hysterical, but I digress.

In the original post, I listed the algae and zooplankton mostly to show that I had not jumped in blindly and now wanted people to bail me out. I feed the assorted algae to the Artemia and to gut load them, to ensure that the shrimp are nutritionally complete. I keep rotifers and 'pods ticking over in the event of a surprise hatch of some kind.

I 'succumbed to temptation' to buy the horses because I was in a LFS and saw a tank of them. The owner claimed that they were tank raised kudas. He then demonstrated how well they would eat frozen Cyclop-eeze and I watched the whole herd of pinched-stomached animals ignore the cloud of 'food'. Well, nuff said. I had been planning to get a pair of horses, so I selected two and I felt that I might be able to save them. Like you, I don't expect the kutas are kudas, so I guess I should have used quotes around 'kuda' in the original post. I will key them out later. The first task was to get them plumped out and growing. Only if they decide to breed, will I worry about who they are.

The feeding crisis seems to have passed as I set up a 40 gal tank, in addition to the 6 gal Artemia carboy, and packed it with newly hatched nauplii and algae and these newest ones are now just large enough for the horses to take interest and snick them up.

I am still very interested in getting some Moina for future projects. Could anybody spare a wee drop of culture before it gets too cold to ship?
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Re: Hungry, Hungry Horses, I need some Moina please.

Postby rayjay » Sat Oct 16, 2010 9:54 am

Yes, I bought a tube of Safe Guard from a TSC store here in London.
However, I lost all of the H. comes before the nine week deworming process was finished.
Finding a source of live foods in Canada is very frustrating, and finding them elsewhere is just as bad because it's next to impossible for us to get them shipped to us.
I HAVE though, in the past, had things shipped to a UPS store at the closest boarder crossing and then drove down and picked them up.
I've never found a source of Moina salina. I think someone was looking for them on seahorse.org without success.
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Re: Hungry, Hungry Horses, I need some Moina please.

Postby johnrt » Sat Oct 16, 2010 10:42 am

Hi rayjay,

I have never has anything arrested at the border. I have only had problems with suppliers that were unwilling to even try.

For the most part these beasts are cosmopolitan. If they do not grow someplace it is because they cannot, not because they have never gotten there. They hitch rides in the plumage of migrating birds. Their dormant cysts blow around in the wind or they already live here, but finding and isolating them is too difficult.

If anybody is willing to give it a try, I have the stuff needed to culture it and will share in Canada - I'll even ship back to the States :)

John T
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Re: Hungry, Hungry Horses, I need some Moina please.

Postby JimWelsh » Sat Oct 16, 2010 12:23 pm

I should have some coming soon, and the European supplier sending them says that they're working with an American live feeds producer to make sure there is a permanent source in the US for them soon. I'll keep you posted.
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Re: Hungry, Hungry Horses, I need some Moina please.

Postby jadeguppy » Sat Oct 16, 2010 3:09 pm

Jim, put me on your "list" please. I look forward to hearing how they do for you.
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Re: Hungry, Hungry Horses, I need some Moina please.

Postby JimWelsh » Sat Oct 16, 2010 3:16 pm

I'm hoping the commercial sources will be making them available soon. I'll share with others, but only if there are no commercial resources available. I don't want to step on the toes of those who are trying to make their living selling live feeds!
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Re: Hungry, Hungry Horses, I need some Moina please.

Postby johnrt » Sat Oct 16, 2010 5:10 pm

Thank you for your efforts Jim. I too like to support the industry and have purchased all my starter cultures.

Florida Aqua Farms is a great resource. Seahorse Source was unwilling to ship live foods to Canada, but very helpful and got me in contact with Erik at Algagen who provided great starters. I have been in contact with Dr. Rhodes at Essential Live Feeds / Oceanpods. She did not have anything I needed, at the moment, but I get back to her in the spring and had no quams about shipping to Canada - routine. And I got some wonderful stuff from Ryan at Zoo2 and all my Artemia from Brine Shrimp Direct. Reed Mariculture ships globally, bit they just were not offering the right mix of goodies when I was hunting.

Most of this stuff has come right to the door and some I have needed to pick up and pay tax, but nobody squawked that they were live.

Just a note: If one does plan to ship to Canada, *DO NOT* use the word *FOOD* anywhere on the paperwork! It is a Four Letter Word. In the last months, the Canadian Food Inspection Agency has taken over enforcement of the import and export of animal feeds from the Department of Agriculture. . . I know somebody that worked in the very small - and shrinking - laboratory section of the CFIA. They inspect very little food, but are wildly fond of their paperwork. As a direct result, several big suppliers of pet foods have simply given up on Canada as the bureaucratic barrier is too high and the market too small.
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Re: Hungry, Hungry Horses, I need some Moina please.

Postby angi » Sat Oct 30, 2010 4:31 am

Greetings from germany

I sent out moina salina this week to USA and they arrived in good shape. Please give Erik from AlgaGen some weeks to make a sellable density. Than You all should have a permanent source.

John, if Erik will not be able to sent to Canada, let me know and I will try to sent to You directly. But first please ask Erik.
I do not speak english very well and it was hard for me, to fill out the forms american custom want from me.

I hope You all have a lot of fun with this food.
yrs, angi
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Re: Hungry, Hungry Horses, I need some Moina please.

Postby Woodstock » Sat Oct 30, 2010 8:58 am

Thank you Angi for taking the time to ship it to the US :)
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Re: Hungry, Hungry Horses, I need some Moina please.

Postby jadeguppy » Sun Oct 31, 2010 10:05 am

Yes, thank you Angi!
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Re: Hungry, Hungry Horses, I need some Moina please.

Postby lokshin55 » Wed Nov 03, 2010 10:01 pm

I was switching my H.erectus babies to frozen food at the time they were eating baby brine. I started mixing BB with frozen cyclopeeze and later with minced mysis following an advice of Abbie and Dan from Seahorse Sourse. I had a brood of 60 seahorse babies and was able to successfully raise 55 of them (two of them I lost while pulling an airline from the tank without noticing 2 babies hitching to it). Anna
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Re: Hungry, Hungry Horses, I need some Moina please.

Postby jolson » Thu Nov 04, 2010 8:11 am

anyone get ahold of algaGen I didn't see anything on there web site about Moina salina, I tried FAF last time I ordered and didnt get any from them even though they listed them for sale
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Re: Hungry, Hungry Horses, I need some Moina please.

Postby johnrt » Thu Nov 04, 2010 9:15 am

jolson wrote:anyone get ahold of algaGen I didn't see anything on there web site about Moina salina, I tried FAF last time I ordered and didnt get any from them even though they listed them for sale


According to the post above, Eric at AlgaGen just got them on or just before last Friday. He will need some time to bulk them up and be sure they are clean and stable before he could get them out to distributors such as FAF. I know we are *all* chomping at the bit, but realistically, stuff takes time. (I know, I sympathize, Six days *seems* like a real long time to me too, but I think it is likely to be even more. sigh) John T
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Re: Hungry, Hungry Horses, I need some Moina please.

Postby JimWelsh » Thu Nov 04, 2010 11:55 am

The ones FAF has advertised in the past were freshwater, not saltwater Moina. Erik at Algagen will need a few weeks to get the cultures up to production numbers. Please be patient. You can try contacting him via the information provided on his "Contact Us" page of his website.
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Re: Hungry, Hungry Horses, I need some Moina please.

Postby jadeguppy » Thu Nov 04, 2010 7:45 pm

I emailed him. here is the response:
Greetings. Thank you for the inquiry. Yes we received the moina salina late last week. I will need at least a month to get the populations to a point where I can begin to sell them. At this point I have not determined pricing. If you do not hear from me in a months time please get back to me..I will move on it as fast as I can : )
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Re: Hungry, Hungry Horses, I need some Moina please.

Postby JimWelsh » Fri Nov 12, 2010 12:46 am

Update on my Moina salina: It will be two weeks tomorrow since the shipment arrived. They are doing VERY WELL for me.

I have several cultures, and they are all increasing dramatically in numbers. I'm currently culturing them at 20 PPT salinity / 1.015 SG (they arrived at 14 PPT / 1.011 SG). I've been feeding them a combination of Nano paste (Roti-Grow), Iso paste (N-Rich), Dan's Feed, live Isochrysis, and (primarily) live Oxyrrhis marina. They really don't seem to be too picky. As long as it's between 1 and 30 microns in size (and possibly a greater size range), they will eat it. I'm keeping them in the 70s F; the nightly low is about 70F and the daytime high is around 76-78F. They are on a 16H on / 8H off photocycle. I have cultures that are given light air through a rigid airline (NO airstone), and cultures that have no air. Both do well, but the one with air does better.

Based on my experience with them, I anticipate that Eric @ Algagen will have them available for sale soon. Please check with him, though.

There was also this interesting cyclopoid copepod that was a contaminate in the Moina salina shipment. It, too is doing well for me. More on it later in its own topic.
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Re: Hungry, Hungry Horses, I need some Moina please.

Postby jadeguppy » Fri Nov 12, 2010 5:02 pm

What type, size, and shape container are you finding works best?
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Re: Hungry, Hungry Horses, I need some Moina please.

Postby JimWelsh » Fri Nov 12, 2010 10:52 pm

I don't really think it matters. They are doing well in all the containers I'm using, but all I've tried so far is small Erlenmeyer flasks and 1 gallon glass goldfish bowls. I'm pretty sure that just about anything that will hold water will work - they aren't very picky!
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Re: Hungry, Hungry Horses, I need some Moina please.

Postby jadeguppy » Sat Nov 13, 2010 3:13 pm

That sounds great. Time to eat some more pretzals....
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