wyoming white x platinum

wyoming white x platinum

Postby chuggy » Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:47 am

has anyone crossed a platinum with a wyoming white yet?
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Re: wyoming white x platinum

Postby chuggy » Mon Oct 17, 2011 12:27 am

bump


? what do you think they will look like?
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Re: wyoming white x platinum

Postby HighEndOfTheLow » Mon Oct 17, 2011 12:50 pm

Well as a guess they will be white and may or may not take the darker fins. Chances are the offspring wouldnt be viable anyway

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Re: wyoming white x platinum

Postby chuggy » Tue Oct 18, 2011 9:03 am

Not viable why?
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Re: wyoming white x platinum

Postby HighEndOfTheLow » Tue Oct 18, 2011 2:36 pm

Because Wyoming white are Amphiprion ocellaris and Platinums are Amphiprion pecula therefore they are more than a cross by phenotype they are also a cross between species....

A good way of thinking about it is a mule. Mules are a cross between two equine species, ie. a Horse and a Donkey. Mules are sterile. The same as Ligers and Tigons, (Tiger x lion). These are also sterile.

Crosses between species are more often than not, sterile, hence why a new species isnt developed.
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Re: wyoming white x platinum

Postby William » Tue Oct 18, 2011 2:48 pm

HighEndOfTheLow wrote:Because Wyoming white are Amphiprion ocellaris and Platinums are Amphiprion pecula therefore they are more than a cross by phenotype they are also a cross between species....

A good way of thinking about it is a mule. Mules are a cross between two equine species, ie. a Horse and a Donkey. Mules are sterile. The same as Ligers and Tigons, (Tiger x lion). These are also sterile.

Crosses between species are more often than not, sterile, hence why a new species isnt developed.


Ok, your example of a mule is valid. They are hybred and they are infertile. But it is not just the fact that horses and donkeys are different species that makes mules infertile. Mules are infertile because horses and donkeys have different numbers of chromosomes so their hybrid ends up with an odd number of chromosomes that is impossible/very difficult to further divide into half to create a viable egg or sperm.

But Ocellaris and Percula clowns have been crossed many times without issue. No higher than normal losses and the offspring are fertile.
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Re: wyoming white x platinum

Postby chuggy » Wed Oct 19, 2011 5:38 pm

thats what i thought arent there allready percularis out there?

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1760885
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Re: wyoming white x platinum

Postby hawgdawg » Thu Oct 20, 2011 1:54 pm

will a percularis breed with another percularis and produce viable offspring?
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Re: wyoming white x platinum

Postby HighEndOfTheLow » Thu Oct 20, 2011 5:07 pm

That was the point i was making. The offspring may make it to adulthood but will be sterile.
Percs and ocillaris will cross in the wild (there is a good article in coral on this) but is they could produce non-sterile i.e. Viable offspring they wouldnt be seperate species just subspecies

Trust me im studying biology and genetics at uni!
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Re: wyoming white x platinum

Postby William » Thu Oct 20, 2011 5:33 pm

hawgdawg wrote:will a percularis breed with another percularis and produce viable offspring?


Yep, they sure will
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Re: wyoming white x platinum

Postby joebean » Thu Oct 20, 2011 5:40 pm

HighEndOfTheLow wrote:Trust me im studying biology and genetics at uni!
:lol:

Sanjay's famous "Odd couple" black photon offsprings have bred together
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Re: wyoming white x platinum

Postby Scottt » Thu Oct 20, 2011 5:55 pm

Interesting genetics convo. I also thought of the Sanjay photons who's offspring have successfully reproduced.

A side note I wanted to mention is that some genetic studies are showing it likely that more than 2 species exist within percula and ocellaris. Species definitions are so weird.
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Re: wyoming white x platinum

Postby HighEndOfTheLow » Fri Oct 21, 2011 5:49 am

The definition of species: There many concepts of species: morphological, geological, biological, etc. According to Biological Concept of Species; if two organisms can breed and produce FERTILE offspring, then these two organisms belong to ONE/SAME species. Horse and donkey are of different species, because mule is STERILE.

From what i have personally read sanjays black photons havent interbreed but the thread is about the cross breeding of the original pair.

I do not disagree that a hybrid will be produced, but breeding from those hybrids isnt likely to happen due to the fact they will likely be sterile due to being hybrids.

This also would have ethical issues due to the immense inbreeding within both parent lines possible causing mutations.

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Re: wyoming white x platinum

Postby joebean » Sat Oct 22, 2011 6:55 am

This is the thread where he details how he bred the mother with her own offspring due to the ocellaris male dying
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showt ... ?t=1904850

http://www.manhattanreefs.com/forum/pho ... ub-14.html
several case of offsprings spawning
sanjay just added pictures of recently bred onyx percula with midnight ocellaris
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Re: wyoming white x platinum

Postby HighEndOfTheLow » Sun Oct 23, 2011 9:07 pm

Thanks for the link

I take it back about them being sterile, however as they are viable i think some work needs to be done on whether they are in fact different species due to the fact they can breed viably. I guess it might be a case of sub species....

However if this is the case, knowing that maroons etc will produce hybrids with percs etc in the wild- does it mean we have issues with all the clownfish? Equally if they produce viable offspring, why isnt it done in the wild more often as a bigger genepool is of a benefit to a species....

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Re: wyoming white x platinum

Postby rrcg50 » Sat Dec 17, 2011 10:09 pm

HighEndOfTheLow wrote:Thanks for the link

I take it back about them being sterile, however as they are viable i think some work needs to be done on whether they are in fact different species due to the fact they can breed viably. I guess it might be a case of sub species....


they are actually determining this right now. there are arguments that they are in fact the same species
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