Possible Bactreial Problems With HUFA Enrichment

Possible Bactreial Problems With HUFA Enrichment

Postby chaz » Wed Sep 09, 2009 5:44 am

Hi,
Not really sure where to place this query, anyway, I have recently lost 4 batches of clowns at between 10 and 14 days old. Microscopic examination shows no parasite infection, only ragged fins that may infer bacterial problems.

During this time I also lost my 1st batch (for a long time) of Orchid Dottybacks.

Around this time I started to use Ratio HUFA to enrich the 24 hour old Brineshrimp, mainly for some Sea Horses I was having a go at and fed the surplus to my clowns.

I also for the 1st time tried enriching Rotifers with the Ratio HUFA. All Dotties were dead after 24 hours !!

Now I know the instructions say use Sterile Salt Water, and I used water from my tanks for the Brineshrimp, and water from my Rotifer culture for the Rotifers.

Is it that the Ratio HUFA is a breeding catalist for bacteria ? even if you use sterile water for enriching how do you steralise the rotifers and BS prior to enriching?

Any comments gratefully received,

Chaz.
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Re: Possible Bactreial Problems With HUFA Enrichment

Postby spawner » Wed Sep 09, 2009 9:59 am

All non-live enrichment are bacterial catalyst. Your using oils or other fatty substances in your water. Your enriching in warm seawater. If your enrichment water is not sterile, if your brine shrimp / rotifers are not sterilized your going to have loads of nastiest growing in your enrichment after a few hours. The is most under estimated part of larval rearing, the biggest mistake most hobbyist make is not understanding the bacterial loading in their live feeds and systems.

It might not even be bacteria related. Over enrichment is an issue as well. Try enriching for 6 hours next time.


Treat them as if they are toxic substances.
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Re: Possible Bactreial Problems With HUFA Enrichment

Postby "Umm, fish?" » Wed Sep 09, 2009 10:22 am

If you continue to see these problems, you could try culturing Euplotes (easy to culture) and using it to stock your rearing tank. Euplotes is known to include bacteria in its diet.
Andy

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Re: Possible Bactreial Problems With HUFA Enrichment

Postby chaz » Wed Sep 09, 2009 11:23 am

Hi Andy,
I think it would take a lot of Euplotes, 6 larvae tanks and 4 BRT's.

Hi Spawner,
If it is bacteria, how would you steralise rotifers before adding to the enrichment vessel ? I know we can reduce bacterial levels in BS by decapsulating and fresh water dips but what to do with the rotifers ?

You may have a point with over enriching, because of work commitments my enrichment was for 12 hours, and I could see that the 24 hr BS was not as motile as 24hr BS that had been in Nanno.

Thanks for your replies, any more thoughts please pass on.

Chaz.
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Re: Possible Bactreial Problems With HUFA Enrichment

Postby spawner » Wed Sep 09, 2009 11:52 am

There are a few commerical products for disinfection of Artemia and Rotifers. I think you can get them in the UK.

Try a 6 hour enrichment. Our tropical fish don't like all the waxy esters and fats in these enrichment. They are enrichment and toxic to BS and Rotifers as well, they are not food.

www.vetcare.gr/pyceze_files/Pyceze_LF_Novartis_07.pdf
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Re: Possible Bactreial Problems With HUFA Enrichment

Postby "Umm, fish?" » Wed Sep 09, 2009 12:58 pm

They are pretty easy to culture to pretty high densities (hundreds per mL). But I see your point.
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Re: Possible Bactreial Problems With HUFA Enrichment

Postby KMB » Wed Sep 09, 2009 1:18 pm

I think I have seen bacterial blooms from enrichments which result in death as well. This has happened at work where we use 3,000 liter tanks with small fragile larvae so we cannot keep the tank bottom and sides as clean as we would like. We see ragged fins and higher mortality rates about a week after adding enriched Artemia. If we can move the fish to a clean tank they respond well. We are enriching the Artemia with SuperSelco or Algamac for over 24 hrs to get a higher fatty acid profile.

I use the same enrichment process at home with my clowns and have never had a problem. I think the difference is that I can keep the rearing tank much cleaner.

Hope that helps, Karen
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Re: Possible Bactreial Problems With HUFA Enrichment

Postby chaz » Fri Sep 11, 2009 7:36 am

Hi,
Thanks for your imput Karen, I have been talking to someone in the UK who say's that for lipid uptake you only need to enrich for 20 min, after that the animal starts to digest and convert the lipids for its own use. For vitamins you would need to enhance for much longer.

For this short term enhancement you would only need to use new salt water for the enhancement vessel and for rinsing off the rotifers and BS. What are your thoughts Karen ?

I will give this a try.

Chaz.
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Re: Possible Bactreial Problems With HUFA Enrichment

Postby spawner » Fri Sep 11, 2009 8:40 am

20 minutes is not correct. There have be numerous studies showing it's on the order of hours, dependent on temperature, salinity, and enrichment type.

You should sterilize your enrichment tank with bleach after each use. We use soap (a high grade laboratory soap, good quality laundry detergent works well) to remove the oils, followed by bleach.
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Re: Possible Bactreial Problems With HUFA Enrichment

Postby KMB » Sun Sep 13, 2009 12:54 pm

Hi Chaz,

I had posted some fatty acid profiles for rotifer and Artemia enrichment on Oct. 3 2007. It was on the thread titled "Enrichments". Sorry I didn't get the link here and I'm rushing out the door to get to work but you can find it by looking through my posts. It didn't translate well onto the site (the numbers didn't line up) but you can see the values.

I also clean all my enrichment tools with dish soap between uses as Spawner recommended.

Karen
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Re: Possible Bactreial Problems With HUFA Enrichment

Postby KMB » Tue Sep 15, 2009 12:57 pm

Oops, I made a mistake on where to find the enrichment info. That's what happens when I do a rush job. :oops:
Here is the link and it basically shows rotifers and Artemia enriched over time and how the fatty acid profile changes with the length of time the live feed is enriched.
viewtopic.php?f=141&t=2964&p=25806#p25806

Chaz, I always use new salt water for enriching and rinse the rotifers in clean salt water and the Artemia in fresh water.
Just to clarify my previous post, I think the bacterial problems that I see in the larger "not as clean tank" can happen even with the Artemia rinsed well because as soon as they are added to the tank they are probably pooping out oily enrichment waste which feeds the already fairly high number of bacteria since the tank is "dirty". This results in an even higher bacteria bloom which the larval fish have trouble with. This is just my theory.

In the smaller tanks where I don't have problems I do clean the sides and bottom and do a half water change at least every other day.

Hope that helps. Karen
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Re: Possible Bactreial Problems With HUFA Enrichment

Postby William » Tue Sep 15, 2009 2:58 pm

KMB wrote:Oops, I made a mistake on where to find the enrichment info. That's what happens when I do a rush job. :oops:
Here is the link and it basically shows rotifers and Artemia enriched over time and how the fatty acid profile changes with the length of time the live feed is enriched.
viewtopic.php?f=141&t=2964&p=25806#p25806

Chaz, I always use new salt water for enriching and rinse the rotifers in clean salt water and the Artemia in fresh water.
Just to clarify my previous post, I think the bacterial problems that I see in the larger "not as clean tank" can happen even with the Artemia rinsed well because as soon as they are added to the tank they are probably pooping out oily enrichment waste which feeds the already fairly high number of bacteria since the tank is "dirty". This results in an even higher bacteria bloom which the larval fish have trouble with. This is just my theory.

In the smaller tanks where I don't have problems I do clean the sides and bottom and do a half water change at least every other day.

Hope that helps. Karen


Hey KMB, I edited your post (the one you linked to) so that the columns line up.
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Re: Possible Bactreial Problems With HUFA Enrichment

Postby chaz » Wed Sep 16, 2009 8:14 am

Hi Karen and Spawner,

I would like to see DHA readings from unfed to 1 or 2 hours enrichment, the charts Karen published were based on animals already fed for 24 hours and then Bumped up ( or so I read them ).
Even Karens charts show an increase of less than 100% over 24 hours, for my application is that worth the effort ?

On a practical level, how does one enrich for 6 hours when working 9 till 5, 5 days a week ?

When using Algae for enrichment and the Green Water method you have none of these problems !!

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Re: Possible Bactreial Problems With HUFA Enrichment

Postby KMB » Wed Sep 16, 2009 12:59 pm

Thanks Will, That makes it much easier to view! :D

Chaz, I think I have values for unenriched I'll see if I can find them. Not sure if I have values for shorter periods of time but I'll check. I ran those a couple years ago and don't remember all that I did.

Those values are what we use at work and were just to give you an idea. I'm working all day sometimes 7 days a week so my home enrichment last anywhere from 8 hrs to 2 days (with bumping).

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Re: Possible Bactreial Problems With HUFA Enrichment

Postby chaz » Sun Sep 20, 2009 6:47 am

Hi,

Lost the next two batches of common clowns at day 9 and 12. This time they were not fed any Ratio HUFA enriched foods, only rotifers and BS enhanced with live algae and I.A. Nanno.

The only clowns I have got through are brought in commons and some true Percs.

The commons were collected as eggs from a friends tank, the Percs were mine and as with my common clowns and B&Ws had been treated with copper.

It would appear that my commons and B&Ws are suffering from some sort of residual effect from the copper treatment, where as the percs seem not to be affected, unfortunatly the percs have now stopped spawning.

Any comments ?

Chaz.
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