Mega Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover - DIY!

Re: Mega Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover - DIY!

Postby SantaMonica » Thu Feb 17, 2011 1:16 pm

Chaeto will not survive if you run a scrubber properly. So make it easy on yourself and remove the chaeto and tumbler pump.

Yours is a one-sided screen, which needs twice the are as a double-sided (but is still not as efficient as a double sided). Thus 30 gal would need 30 square inches double sided, or 60 square inches single-sided. So yours is too small at 25 square inches.

You don't need the acrylic shield if you use CFL spotlights; spotlights can be used on small screens.

For a reef tank, you don't want or need the sock or the skimmer.

Lastly, reverse the order of your buble trap to be more effective:

Image
888-CORAL-REEF
Nutrient Removal Discussion: AlgaeScrubber.net
User avatar
SantaMonica
Supporter
 
Posts: 300
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 3:04 am
Location: Santa Monica, CA, USA
State/Region: California
Country: USA

Re: Mega Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover - DIY!

Postby BoiseJosh » Thu Feb 17, 2011 5:09 pm

WOW. Wonderful, good advice. Thank you.

I will ditch the Chaeto plan. Which will allow more room for a larger screen.

I think I will keep the protein skimmer, at least till my scrubber gets more established.

I will make changes to the bubble trap.

Thanks for your response! The picture made the bubble trap a little more clear.
BoiseJosh
 
Posts: 3
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2011 8:21 pm

Re: Mega Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover - DIY!

Postby johnrt » Thu Feb 17, 2011 11:38 pm

You may also want to place your heater after the Algae Scrubber. Warmed water running through the scrubber will just increase evaporation and waste power.

Enjoy, John T
johnrt
 
Posts: 83
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2010 9:28 am
Location: Ottawa, ON, Canada

Re: Mega Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover - DIY!

Postby onsan » Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:34 pm

SantaMonica wrote:Cleaning Guidelines:
Black/oily growth, but no green: Clean every last bit of it off every three days.
Dark brown growth, but no green: Clean all of it off every 4 days.
Light brown growth, but no green: Clean most of if off every 5 days.
Mostly brown growth, but some green: Clean all of the brown off every 6 days, but leave some of the green.
Half brown and half green growth: Clean most of it off every 7 days.
Mostly green growth: clean most of it off every 10 days.

In all cases, stronger lighting will help you get to green faster, even if the extra lighting is only temporary.

Also, when there is lots of green, you are getting the most filtering. So to minimize nutrient spikes which might occur after cleaning the green off, consider cutting the screen vertically into two halves, and cleaning only one of the halves every 5 days. This give 10 days of growth for each half (about the max you can go), but always leaves the other half to do the filtering.

After several months, you may start getting some thick brown algae that feels like fuzz, and it won't come off. That's turf algae. You don't want turf because it's thick and dark, and it blocks light from reaching the screen (also, because turf does not grow fast enough to be a good filter.) Scrape the turf off with a hack saw blade. Matter of fact, if you start getting turf, you can just start doing all your weekly cleaning with a hack saw blade.


What do you base the case for green algae prefence upon, being that brown and golden-brown algae are the fastest growing marine algae, and therefor most efficient in uptaking nutrients for a given area and time?
onsan
 
Posts: 157
Joined: Sat Mar 13, 2010 11:01 pm

Re: Mega Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover - DIY!

Postby SantaMonica » Sat Feb 19, 2011 1:22 am

Green grows when nutrients are low, because it's easier to grow chlorophyll (green) than proteins. Brown grows when nutrients are high, because proteins (brown) are easier to grow than chlorophyll.
888-CORAL-REEF
Nutrient Removal Discussion: AlgaeScrubber.net
User avatar
SantaMonica
Supporter
 
Posts: 300
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 3:04 am
Location: Santa Monica, CA, USA
State/Region: California
Country: USA

Re: Mega Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover - DIY!

Postby onsan » Sat Feb 19, 2011 2:57 am

Chlorophyll is essential for photosynthesis.
Brown / golden brown algae contain chlorophyll the same as green algae.
Brown algae get their pigmentation from the predominance of fucoxanthin in the chloroplast, a carotenoid.
the combination fucoxanthin (yellow) and chlorophyll (green) gives the brownie yellow colour of brown algae.

from my experience working prawn farms, which rely fundamentally upon algal blooms, green is more stable as it does not require a consistent level of nutrients, brown/golden brown is far more powerful but prone to sudden crashes when nutrients are limited or under fluctuation. The best algal bloom was a khaki coloured bloom, this contained a mix of brown, golden-brown and green algae, it optimised nutrient uptake whilst providing stability through flexibility in the dominant species to prevailing conditions, monocultures, regardless of the colour, were always a greater risk in crashing.

Applying that to ATS...
I would not recommend trying to promote a monoculture, the algae will sort themselves out in time, but having a source of both powerful and stable algae that can be called upon to bloom as needed would provide the best balance between power and stability.

I would recommend keeping brown algae, its more powerful in terms of growth and nutrient uptake, it adds to diversity in cultures creating stability and they contain higher levels of carotenoids (important to inverts), why would you want to remove something that does a better job?
onsan
 
Posts: 157
Joined: Sat Mar 13, 2010 11:01 pm

Re: Mega Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover - DIY!

Postby SantaMonica » Sat Feb 19, 2011 3:15 am

You don't have a choice. As nutrients come down, green will grow.
888-CORAL-REEF
Nutrient Removal Discussion: AlgaeScrubber.net
User avatar
SantaMonica
Supporter
 
Posts: 300
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 3:04 am
Location: Santa Monica, CA, USA
State/Region: California
Country: USA

Re: Mega Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover - DIY!

Postby SantaMonica » Sat Feb 19, 2011 3:16 am

Several updates:

1. Does anyone know of a diver, or can you post on a site with divers, who can take some pics and videos of reef water? What is needed is this: The diver takes a camera and a piece of black cloth/plastic/etc to a reef location; he holds the black sheet about 24 inches from the camera, and takes hi-res pics and video of the plankton floating between the camera and the sheet. Hi-res would be important because of the small particle sizes. Being near corals would be important because that's where the corals feed. And doing it at night would be a great plus, since that's when more plankton is out. Daytime will suffice, however. The purpose of this is to show that reefs really are packed with food particles, and are not "polished" the way reefers "think" they are.

2. Replace bulbs every 3 months, even when they look fine.

3. Clean pump in vinegar every 6 months, even if you think it runs fine.

4. "Turf" is not the goal; Green hair is the goal. It filters the best, because it lets light get to the roots, and it lets water flow throughout the strands. If you start getting real turf, remove it with a hacksaw blade:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9fMdJRmYGM

5. Since the current scrubber recommendations are different from the original recommendations at the start of this thread, here is a new scrubber introduction which could replace post number one: http://www.radio-media.com/fish/AlgaeScrubbers.doc

6. The two most important quotes I've found so far:

"Where deep lagoons are formed, coral growth, especially of Acropora, can be prolific"

"Contrary to popular belief, species diversity is not at its highest on the scenically attractive reefs found in clear oceanic water. It reaches a peak for any given region on fringing reefs protected from strong wave action, where the water is slightly turbid."

-- Corals of the World, Vol 1 page 27

Why? Because it shows that there is more coral growth in lagoon areas than on reefs. How is this? Since lagoons have more algae, they have less nutrients, and more organics (food), than reef fronts (data easily found in reference studies). And that's what corals, especialy SPS, need to grow. Reef fronts (where mostly Acro's grow) actually have higher nutrients and lower organics (food) than lagoons. Why then are there mostly Acro's on reef fronts? Because Acro's don't break under wave action like other corals, and therefore Acro's have less competition (also taken from Corals of the World, Vol 1 page 27).

7. Do you like to research reefs and corals and nutrients etc? Start here:
http://www.reefbase.org/resource_center ... /main.aspx
888-CORAL-REEF
Nutrient Removal Discussion: AlgaeScrubber.net
User avatar
SantaMonica
Supporter
 
Posts: 300
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 3:04 am
Location: Santa Monica, CA, USA
State/Region: California
Country: USA

Re: Mega Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover - DIY!

Postby Thales » Sat Feb 19, 2011 12:27 pm

SantaMonica wrote:Several updates:

1. Does anyone know of a diver, or can you post on a site with divers, who can take some pics and videos of reef water? What is needed is this: The diver takes a camera and a piece of black cloth/plastic/etc to a reef location; he holds the black sheet about 24 inches from the camera, and takes hi-res pics and video of the plankton floating between the camera and the sheet. Hi-res would be important because of the small particle sizes. Being near corals would be important because that's where the corals feed. And doing it at night would be a great plus, since that's when more plankton is out. Daytime will suffice, however. The purpose of this is to show that reefs really are packed with food particles, and are not "polished" the way reefers "think" they are.


This seems to be looking for a generality in diverse systems. Some reefs have high density or particulate, some don't, some do sometimes and don't at other times. The idea that wild reef waters are 'polished' is a misunderstanding, its more that the nutrients on wild reefs are more transient.

SantaMonica wrote:6. The two most important quotes I've found so far:

"Where deep lagoons are formed, coral growth, especially of Acropora, can be prolific"

"Contrary to popular belief, species diversity is not at its highest on the scenically attractive reefs found in clear oceanic water. It reaches a peak for any given region on fringing reefs protected from strong wave action, where the water is slightly turbid."

-- Corals of the World, Vol 1 page 27

Why? Because it shows that there is more coral growth in lagoon areas than on reefs.


I don't think you get that conclusion from those premises. The second quote says nothing about growth or growth rates, it talks about diversity. More diversity doesn't necessary equal growth ie the GBR.
Thales
 
Posts: 385
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2007 11:43 am
Location: SF Bay Area

Re: Mega Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover - DIY!

Postby SantaMonica » Sat Feb 19, 2011 5:04 pm

But if they couldn't grow, they wouldn't be there. And the stuff that can't grow, isn't there.
888-CORAL-REEF
Nutrient Removal Discussion: AlgaeScrubber.net
User avatar
SantaMonica
Supporter
 
Posts: 300
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 3:04 am
Location: Santa Monica, CA, USA
State/Region: California
Country: USA

Re: Mega Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover - DIY!

Postby onsan » Sat Feb 19, 2011 8:17 pm

SantaMonica wrote:You don't have a choice. As nutrients come down, green will grow.


You do have a choice, don't remove the brown algae as you recommended.

Brown algae is more efficient/powerful/effective than green, therefor better to have during initial establishment of the ATS when nutrients are high, through natural attrition you will see in time a prevalence in green algae as nutrients diminish and out-compete brown for the limited availability of resources.

Leave the brown alone, algae species sort themselves out naturally.
onsan
 
Posts: 157
Joined: Sat Mar 13, 2010 11:01 pm

Re: Mega Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover - DIY!

Postby onsan » Sat Feb 19, 2011 8:26 pm

SantaMonica wrote:But if they couldn't grow, they wouldn't be there. And the stuff that can't grow, isn't there.


I agree with Thales, you've mis-interpreted the quote, diversity and rate of growth are nothing akin.
On the leading edges of the reef you do have a more limited diversity of species as fewer species are able to endure the beating ocean, those that do find their morphology takes a form that is more durable, even within the same species. This has nothing to do with rate of growth.

SantaMonica wrote:1. Does anyone know of a diver, or can you post on a site with divers, who can take some pics and videos of reef water? What is needed is this: The diver takes a camera and a piece of black cloth/plastic/etc to a reef location; he holds the black sheet about 24 inches from the camera, and takes hi-res pics and video of the plankton floating between the camera and the sheet. Hi-res would be important because of the small particle sizes. Being near corals would be important because that's where the corals feed. And doing it at night would be a great plus, since that's when more plankton is out. Daytime will suffice, however. The purpose of this is to show that reefs really are packed with food particles, and are not "polished" the way reefers "think" they are.


kinda backward (and ineffective) way of going about it considering that the bulk of coral diet consists of micro organisms, to fine to be resoluted by a macro camera.
more practical and more intrinsic to coral diets, take a set volume sample of reef water at varying depths and times, examine under a microscope to identify population densities of bacteria, protozoans, ciliates, algae, inverts etc.... apply densities of samples to relevant dietary habits of corals and extrapolate answers from there.

or even easier, look at some studies that have already ascertained this, google quantitative sampling of reef biota or similar phrases.
onsan
 
Posts: 157
Joined: Sat Mar 13, 2010 11:01 pm

Re: Mega Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover - DIY!

Postby SantaMonica » Sun Feb 20, 2011 2:20 pm

You do have a choice, don't remove the brown algae as you recommended.


Obviously you have not run a scrubber before. Anyone who has would smile at this.

Brown algae is more efficient/powerful/effective than green


No, it's not, when it's on a confined-area screen which can't increase it's size. Since the screen can't increase it size, the algae can only grow outwards. And as brown algae grows outwards, it blocks the light from reaching the screen, and thus the base algae dies, causing all the algae to let go. No filtering. Green hair, however, holds on the the screen and grows out as far as it can, while still allowing light and flow to reach the base.

And the point of the reef-vs-lagoon is that most reefers think that lagoons are loaded with algae and have high nutrients, and thus have no corals. This is really what they think. When in reality, lagoons are loaded with algae and have low nutrients, and have lots (and the most diversity) of corals.

the bulk of coral diet consists of micro organisms, to fine to be resoluted by a macro camera


Depends on the coral, and the camera. There are plenty of 5mm white particles floating around, which many corals eat. You could also do a plankton tow, but I wanted to do something easier. But who's gonna handle sampling and scopes? Besides, there are hundreds of studies going back to the 1950's for this. But the average beginning reefer on the forums is visual and is not going to read any studies; he needs pics and/or vids. Until then, he will think that water that is "crystal clear like air" is best for coral growth.
888-CORAL-REEF
Nutrient Removal Discussion: AlgaeScrubber.net
User avatar
SantaMonica
Supporter
 
Posts: 300
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 3:04 am
Location: Santa Monica, CA, USA
State/Region: California
Country: USA

Re: Mega Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover - DIY!

Postby Thales » Sun Feb 20, 2011 4:52 pm

SantaMonica wrote:
And the point of the reef-vs-lagoon is that most reefers think that lagoons are loaded with algae and have high nutrients, and thus have no corals. This is really what they think. When in reality, lagoons are loaded with algae and have low nutrients, and have lots (and the most diversity) of corals.


Too much of an over generalization or oversimplification. All corals are not the same. All lagoons are not the same - some have low nutrients, some don't.
I dig that you want to help some of the reefers who misunderstand, but it seems like you are trying to replace those misunderstandings with new ones.

the bulk of coral diet consists of micro organisms, to fine to be resoluted by a macro camera


Depends on the coral, and the camera. There are plenty of 5mm white particles floating around, which many corals eat.


5mm? Thats huge! I don't think you can say that many corals eat 'white particles floating around' without knowing what those particles are.

You could also do a plankton tow, but I wanted to do something easier. But who's gonna handle sampling and scopes? Besides, there are hundreds of studies going back to the 1950's for this. But the average beginning reefer on the forums is visual and is not going to read any studies; he needs pics and/or vids. Until then, he will think that water that is "crystal clear like air" is best for coral growth.


I think that is a disservice to the intelligence of beginning reefers.
And please don't forget that there are female reefers out there.
Last edited by Thales on Sun Feb 20, 2011 8:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Thales
 
Posts: 385
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2007 11:43 am
Location: SF Bay Area

Re: Mega Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover - DIY!

Postby spawner » Sun Feb 20, 2011 8:20 pm

Everyone please be respectful.

Rich is correct, most reefers are somewhat/sometimes/often smart individuals, but I do wonder how many read the literature.

I'll dig up some literature on the assumption regarding algae color and nutrient utilization, but I believe (it has been several years) that in general green species of algae use nutrients up at a faster rate, faster doubling time, than browns and reds but are not as nutritious of a food source.
User avatar
spawner
 
Posts: 1610
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2007 8:28 am

Re: Mega Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover - DIY!

Postby Thales » Sun Feb 20, 2011 9:14 pm

Andy,

Almost no reefers read the scientific literature, which makes sense. It is not easily accessible, it can be very confusing and it is often not very applicable/practical for most hobbyists. A lot of reefers don't even read the hobby literature, either books or online magazines, instead most get their information from forums which is what makes the oversimplifications and over generalizations stated as fact even more worrisome than normal.

From the very first time I saw one of Santa Monicas threads, I had no issue at all with people experimenting with ATS. Experimentation by hobbyists is critical to the continuing understanding of what is going on in our glass boxes (and is in fact how I got started). What did worry me pretty quickly was the ideas, generalizations, simplifications, misunderstandings and anecdote getting stated as fact combined with polarization of the issue when there is disagreement.

I think waterfall ATS are interesting, but worry very much about the presentation of anecdote as fact and actually think that that hurts the mainstream acceptance of ATS as useful for the wider hobby.
Thales
 
Posts: 385
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2007 11:43 am
Location: SF Bay Area

Re: Mega Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover - DIY!

Postby onsan » Sun Feb 20, 2011 11:00 pm

Couldn't have phrased it better myself.
onsan
 
Posts: 157
Joined: Sat Mar 13, 2010 11:01 pm

Re: Mega Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover - DIY!

Postby onsan » Sun Feb 20, 2011 11:44 pm

SantaMonica wrote:Obviously you have not run a scrubber before. Anyone who has would smile at this.

I have and I'm not.

SantaMonica wrote:No, it's not, when it's on a confined-area screen which can't increase it's size. Since the screen can't increase it size, the algae can only grow outwards. And as brown algae grows outwards, it blocks the light from reaching the screen, and thus the base algae dies, causing all the algae to let go. No filtering. Green hair, however, holds on the the screen and grows out as far as it can, while still allowing light and flow to reach the base.

i think you're grasping at straws and confusing morphology with colour, brown filamentous algae behave the same as green filamentous in this respect, you're comparing capsoid/coccoid body forms with filamentous, and trying to relate that to colour.

SantaMonica wrote:And the point of the reef-vs-lagoon is that most reefers think that lagoons are loaded with algae and have high nutrients, and thus have no corals. This is really what they think. When in reality, lagoons are loaded with algae and have low nutrients, and have lots (and the most diversity) of corals.

I can't speak for most reefers, and am unwilling to try. I will say the entire reef is loaded with algae not just the lagoons, most of the reef structure is based upon calcification from algae not coral as is often assumed.

SantaMonica wrote:Depends on the coral, and the camera. There are plenty of 5mm white particles floating around, which many corals eat. You could also do a plankton tow, but I wanted to do something easier. But who's gonna handle sampling and scopes? Besides, there are hundreds of studies going back to the 1950's for this. But the average beginning reefer on the forums is visual and is not going to read any studies; he needs pics and/or vids. Until then, he will think that water that is "crystal clear like air" is best for coral growth.

Read up some journals/texts on coral diet, it would be the minority of corals that would consider a particle 5mm in size consumable, certainly not most.
Plankton tows would not give a true representation of planktonic life important to corals, they would only sample the larger species of inverts and algae, to sample a good proportion you'd need a 1 micron net, and they are very difficult to use effectively as a tow. And yet still, you would not have sampled any bacteria or protozoans which also constitute a major source of dietary input for corals.

SM, I'm not knocking ATS, they're good, but like Thales, I'd like to see the information kept factual, it'll only help your cause to do so.
onsan
 
Posts: 157
Joined: Sat Mar 13, 2010 11:01 pm

Re: Mega Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover - DIY!

Postby johnrt » Mon Feb 21, 2011 10:36 am

Almost no reefers read the scientific literature, which makes sense. It is not easily accessible, it can be very confusing and it is often not very applicable/practical for most hobbyists. A lot of reefers don't even read the hobby literature, either books or online magazines, instead most get their information from forums which is what makes the oversimplifications and over generalizations stated as fact even more worrisome than normal.


I find this observation worrisome as well. I feel it is actually worse in some respects in that many hobbyists will take bits and pieces of these anecdotal 'facts' often gleaned from very different strategies of reef keeping and jumble them together based on what looks easiest or lowest maintenance. We know this occurs because we see the posted questions or 'proposal' posted by new hobbyists and we can recognize the elements selected from completely different and incompatible, schools of thought.

One of the pervasive goals of many reefers is to have crystal clear, polished water in their display tanks. This seems to be, in part, because it looks great but they then justify it on the misunderstood or incorrect 'fact', touted on many livestock supply web pages and even livestock care web pages, that coral is photosynthetic and therefor lives on light and only some corals will benefit from supplementary feeding and that SPS corals, in particular, must be grown in 'low nutrient' water. This advice is given without defining what 'low nutrient' means: no dissolved nitrogen or phosphates, no organically bound nitrated or phosphates or no free-living bacteria, algae or zooplankton all of which contain nitrogen and phosphate. This is without even considering if the advice is even correct.

This trend is reinforced by the near universal terror, in the hobby, of algae. Many hobbyists act as if an algae outbreak is like catching a cold. The analogy being, you are health until somebody sneezes on you, then the virus invades and you get sick until something is done - your immune system kicks in - to kill off the virus and then you are healthy again. So your reef is crystal clear until a single cell of micro-algae or strand of green hair algae is introduced at which point the algae invades and the whole tank turns into green goo until you do something to kill off the algae. There is a whole industry and mythology that supports this idea again, without questioning the facts or exploring the cause of the bloom. The fact is that all tanks contain some levels of many types of micro and macro algae and zooplankton which will bloom if the water chemistry and light levels encourage it. It is not an 'infection'.

This strategy is reinforced by manufacturers that produce products designed specifically to archive the goal of clear polished water, which are then sold based on the perceived 'truth' that clarity and 'low nutrients' are the ultimate goals.

Generally breeders already accept that green-water technique and high zooplankton availability is good, or necessary, in some fry rearing, yet many seem to drift back to the 'sparkling water is good' when it comes to display tanks.

Without putting words into SantaMonica's mouth, a seemingly popular activity, nor raise anybodies hackles, I suspect that he is attempting to debunk the 'clear polished water is good' concept rather than substitute a 'coral eat 5 mm bits of fluff' myth.

In that regard, a photo, taken on a real healthy reef, showing copious quantities of particulate matter of one type or another, up to 5 mm is size, all of which something - fin-fish, shell-fish, mobile and sedentary invertebrates and other plankton eats, would help to dispel this idea. If there are few hobbyists who can or do read the scientific literature, there are less that have the opportunity to dive on a pristine reef and even if they did, they would be so overwhelmed by the shear diversity of fish and coral to even notice the critically important 'grunge in the water'. I know I was not admiring the grunge on the rare occasion when I have been able to cruse a reef.
johnrt
 
Posts: 83
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2010 9:28 am
Location: Ottawa, ON, Canada

Re: Mega Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover - DIY!

Postby Thales » Thu Feb 24, 2011 7:42 pm

Most smaller tanks have plenty floating in the wc, but you don't notice it becasue the tank is too small. If someone were to promote particulate filled water it would be as iffy as promotiong 'clear water' for anything other than looks. Captive systems are different from wild systems and the idea that everything you see in the wild is good for captive systems doesn't always make sense.

We could argue if SM is trying to clear something vs substituting something else, but I think the intent is not that important because his posts often do replace one overgeneralization with a different generalization.

There is plenty of video out there showing particulate in the water on various wild reefs. Its easy to find (really almost any amateur wild reef video), but its important to note that it only really says something about that particular reef at that particular time and that not all particulates are orgainc (there is plenty of inorgainic matter in the wc, and that not all organic particulate is 'eatable' by animals).
Thales
 
Posts: 385
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2007 11:43 am
Location: SF Bay Area

Re: Mega Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover - DIY!

Postby johnrt » Thu Feb 24, 2011 9:39 pm

I agree with you that one generalization being replaced by a different one may not be of much value, particularly if it is not presented along with some background to the point of view so that it can be evaluated.

There are a great many products in the hobbyist market that are designed to polish water: cannister filters, filter socks, filter floss for HOB and other filters, flocculant chemicals, UV and ozone generators. All of these promote crystal clear tanks as a goal. Even products designed to feed your tank instruct the user to turn off filtration briefly during feeding, the restore clarity by turning it back on after a very short interval. Most conventionally 'well run' tanks, winners of various "Tank of the Month"s that many hobbyists hope to emulate, exhibit water clarity rarely encountered in nature. These are grand tanks and their inhabitants are healthy but may not be growing rapidly or feeding luxuriously. After all, rapid growth in a display tank requires more maintenance just for best appearance.

Perhaps the forums on a breeder's site is not the most useful place to discuss this topic as most of us do use some tanks that are intentionally kept 'murky' for specific roles. Additionally, our goal is to have high productivity environments with rapid growth of the animals they contain.

SantaMonica's requested images of healthy, but cloudy, reef water which might be more eye-opening if presented on a general reef hobbyist site. After all, he was only requesting such images here, not offering to post them for our enlightenment, nor do we know what points he might be trying to make if he were to post here or elsewhere.

The observation that such images already exist and the suggestions of where they could be found might be helpful to SantaMonica.
johnrt
 
Posts: 83
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2010 9:28 am
Location: Ottawa, ON, Canada

Re: Mega Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover - DIY!

Postby Thales » Thu Feb 24, 2011 10:50 pm

johnrt wrote:I agree with you that one generalization being replaced by a different one may not be of much value, particularly if it is not presented along with some background to the point of view so that it can be evaluated.


Sweet. I hope you don't mind the quoting responses - it feels like it helps me be more accurate.

There are a great many products in the hobbyist market that are designed to polish water: cannister filters, filter socks, filter floss for HOB and other filters, flocculant chemicals, UV and ozone generators. All of these promote crystal clear tanks as a goal. Even products designed to feed your tank instruct the user to turn off filtration briefly during feeding, the restore clarity by turning it back on after a very short interval. Most conventionally 'well run' tanks, winners of various "Tank of the Month"s that many hobbyists hope to emulate, exhibit water clarity rarely encountered in nature. These are grand tanks and their inhabitants are healthy but may not be growing rapidly or feeding luxuriously. After all, rapid growth in a display tank requires more maintenance just for best appearance.


I think there are a bunch of generalization in that paragraph. Many of the products mentioned aren't just to polish water - most of them are also, if not only, for other types of general filtration. I think the promote clean water, not crystal clear tanks. Either way, its marketing, and we all know that we shouldn't believe the hype. Though as you point out, a lot of new entries to the hobby (and other hobbies) do believe the hype. I think there is a basic hiccup about clean water looking clean, and most filtration is there to remove stuff before it breaks down into ickies. The point of turning filtration off during feeding and back on is not just about making the water look clear, its about removing matter before it can break down - which is a fine methodology (which is of course, sometimes misunderstood - filtersocks become nitrate factories for instance).

I don't think you can safely say that clear water is 'rarely encountered in nature'. I have had the privilege of diving on many wild reefs sometimes they are clear and sometimes they aren't. Some are more clear more often than others. Some are clear at some time of the year and not at others.

I also don't think you can safely say that tanks with clear water are 'healthy but may not be growing rapidly or feeding luxuriously' because there are plenty have clear water and very fast growth.

Both of those examples seem like generalizations created from cherry picked data, and I don't believe they help individuals or the hobby as a whole.

Perhaps the forums on a breeder's site is not the most useful place to discuss this topic as most of us do use some tanks that are intentionally kept 'murky' for specific roles. Additionally, our goal is to have high productivity environments with rapid growth of the animals they contain.


Sure, and I think you are right - the goal of the particular system is important to define. A coral display tank is different than a fish grow out system. For some animals, murky nutrient rich water can be an immediate detriment to animal health or a long term, stuff breaking down destroying water quality type of health detriment.

SantaMonica's requested images of healthy, but cloudy, reef water which might be more eye-opening if presented on a general reef hobbyist site.


The discussion of turbidity and particulate is and has been going on, long before SM started posting to every site that would let him. Like ATS, its just not a new idea.

After all, he was only requesting such images here, not offering to post them for our enlightenment, nor do we know what points he might be trying to make if he were to post here or elsewhere. The observation that such images already exist and the suggestions of where they could be found might be helpful to SantaMonica.


Of course you are right - however, I have seen his posts on too many sites to count since he started on the ATS bandwagon, and feel pretty confident that I have a feel for how he uses information he requests. I am not particularly interested in helping him to continue to act in a way that I feel confuses hobbyists and moves the hobby sideways instead of forward. Thanks for the interesting discussion:D
Thales
 
Posts: 385
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2007 11:43 am
Location: SF Bay Area

Re: Mega Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover - DIY!

Postby BaboonScience » Fri Feb 25, 2011 12:36 am

This seems to be breaking down into two topics, experimental/equipment related discussion and a philosophical discussion of reef clarity. It seems that perhaps the topic should be divided to keep the integrity of both discussions, as each is valid?

I do wish to note that any straight reef observations are anecdotal, essentially single or multipoint observations by a single individual. The greater the number of points the better the validity of the statement. However, even this information is of value if the collected observations of many observers over many time periods on a single location are accumulated and evaluated. There is also the possibility that people dive on reefs when the visibility is good enough to see what is there?

John
"The exact contrary of what is generally believed is often the truth" Jean De La Bruyère (1645-1696)
User avatar
BaboonScience
 
Posts: 3629
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2007 8:47 pm
Location: High Shoals

Re: Mega Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover - DIY!

Postby johnrt » Fri Feb 25, 2011 9:20 am

BaboonScience,

Sorry for the hijack. I really have nothing additional to add regarding clarity. So this thread should go back to the discussion of Algae scrubber design and - by necessity - anecdotal observations of their effectiveness.

A different thread that might be of value would be a discussion of how to design a more rigorous experimental test of Algae scrubbers vs other water maintenance systems. People could weigh-in with ideas on the experimental design and at some point, somebody will do it. When I think about it, it is a complex problem and well worth a serious effort, perhapses in the Research Projects Forum.

Anybody want to grab this tiger by the tail. Could be fun.
johnrt
 
Posts: 83
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2010 9:28 am
Location: Ottawa, ON, Canada

Re: Mega Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover - DIY!

Postby SantaMonica » Sun Mar 27, 2011 1:48 am

After over a year of testing, here is the first functional prototype of the Santa Monica 25 Nano scrubber, made pretty much from the plans that were posted here last year.


Image


Image


Image


Image


Image


Image


Image


Image


Image


Image


Image


Image


Image


Image


Image


Image


Image


Image


Image


Image


Image


Image


Image
888-CORAL-REEF
Nutrient Removal Discussion: AlgaeScrubber.net
User avatar
SantaMonica
Supporter
 
Posts: 300
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 3:04 am
Location: Santa Monica, CA, USA
State/Region: California
Country: USA

PreviousNext

Return to Equipment



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 34 guests